Swiss Time Services - What a mess

Perrier · Jul 27, 2018

tyrantlizardrex
You can do whatever you like - but if you want the problem resolved, talking to Tony is you’re best option - something has gone wrong, more than once, and it’s frustrating as hell, but this is still your best option if you want STS to resolve the issue.

If you just want to tell everyone about your experience, have at!

I’m just not sure where that will get you?

Before you use a service, do you like to research reviews / comments on the service?

Surely it is in people's interest to read about negative experiences too?

I don't think this forum and it's members would benefit from people only posting their positive experiences.

jimmyd13 · Jul 27, 2018

Perrier
The facts of the matter are STS sent the watch to me 3 times (after servicing the watch) and on all 3 occasions introduced a new problem.

There is obviously a problem with their quality control.

I spoke to Tony on the phone after the second failure and he wanted me to meet him in London so he can fix the watch personally. That wasn't possible, so he told me to send it to him and he will take care of it.

So he solved the dirty dial problem and introduced a new problem.

Am I supposed to keep this quiet because a few people here like STS?

There's no need to "keep quiet" but a quick check of the threads that you have started read like this:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/rose-gold-mid-1950s-omega-constellation-on-ebay.41665/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/sho...less-accurate-time-than-modern-watches.41792/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/brown-stains-on-gold-watches.42962/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/dro...opped-out-but-everything-else-seems-ok.62137/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/recommend-someone-to-service-my-vintage-omega-constellation.67125/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/wha...ould-i-expect-to-get-after-a-servicing.70557/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/can-dirt-or-metal-on-the-dial-cause-any-issues.73893/

Now, if I've got this right it seems that:
you bought a Constellation from eBay;
it wasn't running correctly;
the dial was stained or marked;
you dropped the watch, hard enough to pop the glass and break the retaining ring;
you then looked to get the watch serviced;
you still had accuracy issues;
you saw a "piece of metal" dial side.

Does that about cover it?

You've not said anything about the history in this thread so I ask, did you tell STS about all these issues before you asked them to service the watch? Frankly, you've not disclosed the history of the watch in this thread so I really have to wonder if you told the full story to your watchmaker.

While I have used STS and have been happy with their work, I have also used half a dozen other watchmakers. In fact, just yesterday I had a call from one about a watch. He called to let me know that he had examined the watch he was working on and found evidence of a "bodged" earlier repair meaning that he would have to correct an issue with a setting bridge (parts availability not even worth thinking about as this is a hand made pocket watch over 150 years old). He said he was not certain that the bridge could be repaired and asked permission to go ahead or if I wanted the watch returned as is.

I tell that little story because it did just happen yesterday but also because your watchmaker is like your tailor or your barber ... if you do not disclose everything relevant, you are in a poor position to later complain about the outcome.

Perrier · Jul 27, 2018

Your history of the watch and problem are wrong. Can you please delete it as you are just spreading misinformation?

I bought the watch from a member here.
The watch was near perfect. A senior member here called it's condition "remarkable".
It kept excellent time and the dial was perfect.
I dropped the watch (small drop) which put some scratches on the crystal and made the watch lose (if I recall) 30 seconds.

I then sent the watch to STS, with details of the issues.

Honestly I find it odd you and another member are trying so hard to put the blame on me.

jimmyd13 · Jul 27, 2018

Perrier
Your history of the watch and problem are wrong. Can you please delete it as you are just spreading misinformation?

I bought the watch from a member here.
The watch was near perfect. A senior member here called it's condition "remarkable".
It kept excellent time and the dial was perfect.
I dropped the watch (small drop) which put some scratches on the crystal and made the watch lose (if I recall) 30 seconds.

I then sent the watch to STS, with details of the issues.

I see absolutely no reason to delete the post above. I will rephrase the question: what is the history of this watch prior to the initial service? Did you disclose the history to your watchmaker?

Perrier · Jul 27, 2018

jimmyd13
I see absolutely no reason to delete the post above. I will rephrase the question: what is the history of this watch prior to the initial service? Did you disclose the history to your watchmaker?

Aren't you simply trying to derail the conversation with that question?

Do you agree or disagree STS have majorly screwed up this repair?

Perrier · Jul 27, 2018

tyrantlizardrex
So you don’t want STS to fix the issue, you just want to complain about them, and have this complaint seen as a review?

I don't have faith they will fix it. They've already caused problems three times. I am sure you can understand that, even if you are a fan of STS.

ConElPueblo · Jul 27, 2018

Some odd responses here...

Defendants of STS on one side and a dissatisfied client on the other - if what @Perrier writes (has given details of the issues to STS, watch was sent back to him with different issues that wasn't there to begin with, etc.) then why do you guys @tyrantlizardrex and @jimmyd13 keep on questioning him like he was out to ruin STS' business? It's just one single bad review! How about accepting that watchmakers make mistakes from time to time and let it stand at that? Or that things can go wrong with watches when they are shipped long distances?

I can well understand Perrier's frustration, but his story wouldn't make me stop mentioning STS to others as a place I've heard really good reviews about.

ChrisN · Jul 27, 2018

I think there is one obvious thing here and that is @Perrier has had a bad experience with this watch and sending it to UK from the other side of the world (not sure exactly where) has not worked for him and he's rightly frustrated. I think I remember some of the other threads.

If they do 10000+ watches a year, some will slip through with issues. I find it hard to believe they don't review the dial in detail before sending it out, so the part on the dial was probably attached to the underside of a hand and came off in transit - that can happen and you were unlucky. It's not likely that the crown issue is anything major so, you shouldn't be too concerned - most things are fixable.

If I were you, I'd move on and use someone else as I wouldn't give any company supplying any service more than three attempts to resolve the issues regardless of their reputation. It means that you will forget this bad experience as it has not worked for you, even though many people have been happy with their service so there is not much to be gained by railing against the usual reviews.

Good luck, Chris

jimmyd13 · Jul 27, 2018

Perrier
Aren't you simply trying to derail the conversation with that question?

Do you agree or disagree STS have majorly screwed up this repair?

I am not derailing anything. I am asking for the background to your post. I will not form any judgment about a company that I have always known to perform flawlessly, professionally, and with great attention to detail in the absence of that background information.

You see, here's what gets me: you've been a member of the site for over two years; in that time, you've made less than 100 comments; the majority of those comments and threads are asking the most basic due diligence questions or specifics that any enthusiast should be able to work out for themselves. Forgive me for saying this, but it just seems a little odd that you would then openly criticise one of the most trusted and experienced watchmakers available today.

I don't believe there is an agenda here but it seems odd that someone whose posts wander around between "what do you think of this ebay auction?" to "what box should this watch have" and "are vintage watches less accurate than modern watches" then "what's so great about a Speedmaster" before back to "my watch strap hurts my wrist" then suddenly posts a complaint about work done and wants it logged as a review for all to see. Well, if we're reviewing STS, I have spent many thousands with them over the years and have never had issue to question any work that they have undertaken. I score them 5 out of 5.

jimmyd13 · Jul 27, 2018

ConElPueblo
Defendants of STS on one side and a dissatisfied client on the other - if what @Perrier writes (has given details of the issues to STS, watch was sent back to him with different issues that wasn't there to begin with, etc.) then why do you guys @tyrantlizardrex and @jimmyd13 keep on questioning him like he was out to ruin STS' business? It's just one single bad review! How about accepting that watchmakers make mistakes from time to time and let it stand at that? Or that things can go wrong with watches when they are shipped long distances?

The thing is, I never set out to defend STS. I've spoken to Tony but never met him. I couldn't tell you the name of any of the staff there now that Simon's left. I have no ties to them whatsoever.

It's just that the vehemence of the post was such as to make me wonder what was going on here, so I "read around" the thread. There's no doubt in my mind that there is a great deal more to this story than is being disclosed. I was also going to question the possibility of damage in transit but I know how well the watches returned to me from STS were packaged. That might be an issue, and it might not.

My real bug-bear is that STS are a professional outfit and would never engage with a post like this. As a result, we'll not hear both sides of the story.

padders · Jul 27, 2018

What watch repairer doesn't make the odd mistake, and sometimes those mistakes or issues take multiple visits to fix. It is bloody frustrating but occasionally these things happen. I too have had issues requiring multiple visits with STS in the past (in Simon Freese's charge so not a new thing). But also with Omega SC, Watchbloke, Essex C&W, Ryte Time, etc etc etc. You show me a watchmaker who has never had a return and I'll show you a unicorn. That said I do feel for the OP, sending something this many times at presumably some not little expense isn't fun. In his shoes I too would be tempted to move on.

ConElPueblo · Jul 27, 2018

jimmyd13
You see, here's what gets me: you've been a member of the site for over two years; in that time, you've made less than 100 comments; the majority of those comments and threads are asking the most basic due diligence questions or specifics that any enthusiast should be able to work out for themselves. Forgive me for saying this, but it just seems a little odd that you would then openly criticise one of the most trusted and experienced watchmakers available today.

...Sorry, but what? Does the end-user have to be an expert in order to state his opinion?? If anything, if a defect is immediately visible to an inexperienced user, doesn't this say something about the result of that service?

Again, a lot of things could have happened from the watch being cleared after the work being completed and the watch landing in HK!

jimmyd13
Well, if we're reviewing STS, I have spent many thousands with them over the years and have never had issue to question any work that they have undertaken. I score them 5 out of 5.

And no-one questioned your experiences?

jimmyd13
...make me wonder what was going on here, so I "read around" the thread. There's no doubt in my mind that there is a great deal more to this story than is being disclosed.

But you read that he dropped the watch hard enough for the crystal to pop out and the tension ring to break? How hard a fall is that? Do you know if the crystal was mounted properly to begin with? Was the correct size? Also, where did you read that the tension ring broke? I read that it fell out.

nonuffinkbloke · Jul 27, 2018

It would seem that the customers who use STS fall into two groups:
1) Those who communicate by phone or email and send the watches (some long distances) by mail.
2) Those who are able to visit the workshop, collect their watch and speak directly to the staff and management at STS.

I don't think anyone is going to suggest that things can never go wrong, even at a place like Swiss Time Services. And yes, it's unfortunate and frustrating if things are not resolved straight away. I do however feel that if you had the opportunity to visit STS, talk to the staff, technicians and Tony Coe, see the attention to detail in the way the workshop has been set up, any thoughts that they are a negligent, 'Mickey Mouse' set up would soon disappear.

If you see the pride on Tony Coe's face when he gives a tour of STS, you can tell that the quality of their work is very important to him. He will be just as unhappy about the issues with your watch service as you are, and he will want it right.

Talk to him again. He's a reasonable bloke.👍 I hope it gets sorted for you.😀

skipper · Jul 27, 2018

I didn't even realise Simon had left... Any idea where he is now? Or has he retired?

nonuffinkbloke · Jul 27, 2018

skipper
I didn't even realise Simon had left... Any idea where he is now? Or has he retired?

He's only up the road. http://www.simonfreesewatchmakers.com/

jimmyd13 · Jul 27, 2018

ConElPueblo
...Sorry, but what? Does the end-user have to be an expert in order to state his opinion?? If anything, if a defect is immediately visible to an inexperienced user, doesn't this say something about the result of that service?

Again, a lot of things could have happened from the watch being cleared after the work being completed and the watch landing in HK!

And no-one questioned your experiences?

But you read that he dropped the watch hard enough for the crystal to pop out and the tension ring to break? How hard a fall is that? Do you know if the crystal was mounted properly to begin with? Was the correct size? Also, where did you read that the tension ring broke? I read that it fell out.

I suppose if I'm questioning another member's post, I open myself up to being questioned as well. What would you like to know?

As for the assumptions made, I'm playing devil's advocate because it seemed that there was a partial story and it was being accepted at face value with others making the opposite assumptions to mine. I don't think that's particularly fair and I'd ask the same questions if I saw anyone else here being criticised without being able to respond. As I wrote earlier, there are three sides to every story and I have a very strong feeling that we're only getting a sanitised version of one half coupled with a complaint.

michael22 · Jul 27, 2018

I wouldn't send it back a 4th time either.
Regardless of the experience of others, it is one's own experience that matters most.

Archer · Jul 27, 2018

jimmyd13
I see absolutely no reason to delete the post above. I will rephrase the question: what is the history of this watch prior to the initial service? Did you disclose the history to your watchmaker?

I have no dog in this fight, but putting forward the notion that if a full history wasn't disclosed, this somehow "explains" the issues with the watch after service is way off. 90%+ of the watches I get in for servicing don't have any history provided with them, and I can't imagine that any watchmaker is provided the history of every single watch they get in for service. A typical condition report that I get from a customer is "needs service", and I'm pretty sure I figured that out already since that's what they sent it to me for. I don't know when they were serviced, if they were dropped, how fast or slow they might run, and quite frankly knowing that ahead of time is not important.

Watchmakers don't rely on customer supplied information regarding the faults with the watch - we use our eyes and our own measurements to determine what is wrong and how it should be fixed. It's not like a watchmaker would skip inspecting the parts in the watch unless they were told the watch was dropped - that's nonsense as the procedures followed are the same regardless if any history was given or not. Even if the OP told them zero history about the watch, that should not be put forward as any reason for the end result to have been sub-standard.

The onus to diagnose problems with a watch is on the watchmaker, not the customer.

Cheers, Al

JACK G · Jul 27, 2018

Many years ago when I was a print buyer my boss told me to always put full and explicit instructions in writing to the printer and to follow up all ongoing discussions with written confirmation.

His reason was that in the event of a dispute, which ended up in court, a judge who would not be familiar with the printing process so would be unable to make a technical judgement. As has already been pointed out there are 2/3 sides to every story so if you document everything at least one side is covered.

I understand that to many this can be a pain but I have always followed this advice with everything I do and having things in writing has paid dividends many, many times over the years.

Now I am not suggesting that the OP did not give written instructions or that the problems he describes would have been avoided and I understand his frustration. However at this stage I would not vent my frustrations regarding the errors, time scale and post costs on the Forum.

A simple email to STS outlining his requirements ie. I will (reluctantly!) return the watch but expect STS to not only expedite the repair and cover my post costs but ensure that the watch is carefully is checked after repair by at least two people one of whom should be Tony.

In my experience there will always be a satisfactory outcome if there is a willingness be both parties to seek a satisfactory conclusion

Archer · Jul 27, 2018

JACK G
I understand that to many this can be a pain but I have always followed this advice with everything I do and having things in writing has paid dividends many, many times over the years.

So he should have written a note to say "Please make sure you service this so it works correctly and no debris is left on the dial."?

I am a firm believer in communicating your wishes to the watchmaker if you have some specific requirement that is out of the ordinary, but making the watch run properly, the crown function, and not leaving debris on the dial are not out of the ordinary. So if you have specific requirements, such as not reluming a dial or do not polish the case, by all means put them in writing. But those are not the sort of issues we are talking about here - these are basic functions that all in the transaction can rightly assume will be done properly.

Cheers, Al

Swiss Time Services - What a mess

Perrier

jimmyd13

Perrier

jimmyd13

Perrier

Perrier

ConElPueblo

ChrisN

jimmyd13

jimmyd13

padders

ConElPueblo

nonuffinkbloke

skipper

nonuffinkbloke

jimmyd13

michael22

Archer

JACK G

Archer

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