Early Polerouter Sub Discussion

LoMat · Aug 29, 2018

Mazoue
I have always been extremely cynical about 2nd execs and vowed never to buy one. However, given the recent discussion about the watch belonging to @LoMat above, I decided it must be fate when I saw the example pictured below for sale in a classifieds ad and I snapped it up.

It has what we consider to be a first exec dial but seems to support the theory that a good quality stainless steel case with bevelled lugs did exist.

I will send further photographs when I receive the watch, including comparisons with a first exec.

Were you able to put your hands on the watch eventually 😁 ?? This thread has been quiet ever since you posted your incoming catch 🙁

Mazoue · Aug 29, 2018

L LoMat
Were you able to put your hands on the watch eventually 😁 ?? This thread has been quiet ever since you posted your incoming catch 🙁

Currently awaiting my baggage at Heathrow, having spent a month in South Africa.

I've arranged for the watch to be delivered tomorrow.

Lieuwe · Aug 30, 2018

There is a Polerouter Sub for sale on eBay; https://www.ebay.de/itm/UNIVERSAL-Sa-Geneve-Polerouter-SUB-Micro-Automatic-1965/283118385980

I have read most of this thread an it seems that this is also a so-called Australian watch? What do you guys think?

Case is not made of one piece, caseback doesn't have a notch in it, swiss is partially hidden and there is a space between GENE VE.

LoMat · Aug 30, 2018

Lieuwe
There is a Polerouter Sub for sale on eBay; https://www.ebay.de/itm/UNIVERSAL-Sa-Geneve-Polerouter-SUB-Micro-Automatic-1965/283118385980

I have read most of this thread an it seems that this is also a so-called Australian watch? What do you guys think?

Case is not made of one piece, caseback doesn't have a notch in it, swiss is partially hidden and there is a space between GENE VE.

Exactly! A nice one with absolutely all the peculiarities of the non genuine ones.

Mazoue · Aug 30, 2018

Lieuwe
There is a Polerouter Sub for sale on eBay; https://www.ebay.de/itm/UNIVERSAL-Sa-Geneve-Polerouter-SUB-Micro-Automatic-1965/283118385980

I have read most of this thread an it seems that this is also a so-called Australian watch? What do you guys think?

Case is not made of one piece, caseback doesn't have a notch in it, swiss is partially hidden and there is a space between GENE VE.

Yes, a perfect example of a Polerouter Sub to avoid.

To your list of flaws you can add nasty grey case material, poor quality crowns with base metal showing through and an inner bezel with fat font (not sure any of the bezels with that font are genuine).

Mazoue · Aug 30, 2018

O olivdobs
Thanks 😀 Yes, unfortunately I am pretty certain of that as well.

I see this one sold for around £8,200 including commission. @olivdobs Were you lucky enough to get it?

I think it was a very good example.

Mazoue · Aug 30, 2018

I finally received the 1st generation Polerouter Sub with bevelled lugs today and it is even better than I had hoped.

The case reference is 20369/1TA and the serial number is 2'230'xxx.

The case back is also stamped "Stainless Steel Swiss" on the outside, which suggests to me that it was made for the US market. This is supported by the fact that the Cal 218-97 movement is stamped with the "HON" US import code.

In my opinion, this watch provides very strong evidence and perhaps proof that a genuine bevelled lug case existed for these first generation Subs, which is something that I had begun to doubt because of the number of fakes that we've seen.

jumpingsecond · Aug 30, 2018

Great find @Mazoue . Seems then that this could be the version the fakers tried to simulate, royally screwing the market for them at the same time.

sdre · Aug 30, 2018

Very nice @Mazoue !!

rolokr · Aug 30, 2018

Incredible find, I think it's %100 the real deal and obviously more scarce than the other genuine case style ! The fakes should now be retermed ? Yours is truly a genuine 2nd geneation. Fakes shoild now be termed 3rd generation ?

LoMat · Aug 31, 2018

I now rest my case your honor 😝 and I thank you Mazoue for that. I felt a bit lonely in my quest to be honest 😬
This is a superb find and so unlikely as you said earlier in this thread 😗, proving that we are quite far from knowing everything in this horological hobby/passion of ours.
The TA in your ref number stamped on the back is worth maybe doing some research 📖 ? Do the usual 1st exec also bear the TA?

I believe this is not a 2nd exec but a simple variant of the 1st exec, more beautiful though 😜 thanks to the beveled lugs.
Maybe a (limited) attempt from UG to bring similarities with the JLC Polaris (also with beveled lugs) instead of the usual lugs also found on the Longines Dual crown Diver for ex.

PS: btw, I also have the HON US import code on my 215 caliber. So maybe a very small batch made for the US market?

Woops · Aug 31, 2018

Well, well, well....the plot thickens. Some of us here have been very curious about this big reveal @Mazoue.

I wonder why the crowns were changed on these. I regard the mismatched crowns on the first execution one of my favourite features of the watch.

Mazoue · Aug 31, 2018

L LoMat
The TA in your ref number stamped on the back is worth maybe doing some research 📖 ? Do the usual 1st exec also bear the TA?

I've not seen it before myself but I understand that the TA is a bracelet code and that you can also find TP, TR and TPS after the case reference.

Mazoue · Aug 31, 2018

rolokr
Incredible find, I think it's %100 the real deal and obviously more scarce than the other genuine case style ! The fakes should now be retermed ? Yours is truly a genuine 2nd geneation. Fakes shoild now be termed 3rd generation ?

Perhaps it is easier to identify the fakes than we think. Perhaps all dials with fully lumed hour markers are fakes (or relumed as in the case of the watch owned by @LoMat )?

Has anyone seen or does anyone own an example with fully lumed hour markers that they believe is genuine?

Mazoue · Aug 31, 2018

Woops
Well, well, well....the plot thickens. Some of us here have been very curious about this big reveal @Mazoue.

I wonder why the crowns were changed on these. I regard the mismatched crowns on the first execution one of my favourite features of the watch.

I agree, I also like the asymmetric crowns on the first execution models but not all first execs have mismatched crowns. There are known examples, including watches in this thread, with two smaller crowns. These crowns are identical to the smaller crowns normally used on the watches with mismatched crowns - they are different to the crowns on my second exec watch as they have a lip.

I suppose it is possible that the larger crowns were replaced at a later date but I think there are enough examples to believe that the matched crowns are original.

LoMat · Aug 31, 2018

Space between E and VE in GENEVE is enough tell tale.
As for lume job, I believe those fake dials are born like this and this is not a "relume" job but just a lume one.
Mine has been repainted (which was misleading at the first sight for almost everyone 😵‍💫)
I feel the need to get rid of this useless paint 😲 to reveal what is below😁, maybe it is simple water painting and water would do the job...

Mazoue · Oct 31, 2018

This first generation Polerouter Sub on eBay is interesting
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNIVERSA...IAL-YEAR-1959-circa-OVERSIZE-MEN/183512434657

The serial is 2'034'xxx (not stated or shown on the listing), which is probably too early for Polerouter Subs but could possibly explain the absence of the Polerouter Sub text on the dial. It does have the 20369/1 case reference that we would expect on a first gen Sub.

The Cal 215-9 is unusual but there are other examples with this movement.

The lumed triangle on the inner bezel is uncommon. I think it is more common to have scruffily applied lume up to the 20 or no lume at all. The font on the bezel looks correct though.

The case back does not seem to have the gap in the screw thread that we see on genuine examples. The cross hatched crowns with lip look ok. I don't like the drilled lugs.

It doesn't have the lume dots that we would expect to see on the hour markers of a first gen Sub. Based on these relatively low resolution photographs, the text looks ok.

There are too many red flags for me but it's not totally without merit and does not have the usual hallmarks of the fakes that we see.

Woops · Oct 31, 2018

Fine forensic work as usual @Mazoue

If this watch is not a fake, can we assume that the early serial theoretically places it under first generation, first execution ‘rules’?
If so, the lume work presented on this piece raises some concerns.

As you say, first executions should have lume dots on the hour markers and not totally ‘filled in’ circles.
Furthermore, I don’t recall ever seeing a solid lume triangle at 0/60 on the outer bezel, rather a triangle outline only, and the lack of any other lume on the remainder of the outer bezel is very strange indeed.

All of this, coupled with a heavily polished case, and an ambitious BIN price, makes it a definite pass for me too.

Woops · Nov 20, 2018

I was just browsing through the archives on the terrific Polerouter website created by @CafeRacer and came across this catalogue snippet.

The Sub pictured surely wouldn’t pass modern OF due diligence on this reference!

Mazoue · Nov 20, 2018

Always difficult to reach any conclusions based on adverts as I don't think it's unusual to see anomalies in adverts. For example, I think there are other examples where the model name, Polerouter Sub in this case, is missing from the dial.

Early Polerouter Sub Discussion

LoMat

Mazoue

Lieuwe

LoMat

Mazoue

Mazoue

Mazoue

jumpingsecond

sdre

rolokr

LoMat

Woops

Mazoue

Mazoue

Mazoue

LoMat

Mazoue

Woops

Woops

Mazoue

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