Nick Hacko rant about Swiss watch companies not selling parts to independent watchmakers

Posts
6,832
Likes
13,793
The biggest driver in everything is the Marketing strategy of high end brands these days. The whole plan is the status of said brand and number one BRAND LOYALTY Omega has gone from ADs to Boutique,s similar to Rolex.

Buy at Omega
Service at Omega
The 98% of the people that pay 10k + for a watch have no issue at all with this as the are led to believe that this is the best care for their watch.

We have it even with a boat motor now days where warranty Will not be valid unless brand name oils and lubricants (at twice the cost of normal packaged) are used for the Life of the warranty. Using another oil will not affect the engine or the running but the brand wants you to use their branded oils their service centre their parts.
That's my view as well
 
Posts
27,689
Likes
70,368
I don't know who draws the line...but in this case it seems the brands do.

If you are okay with that, it's your choice. I am not okay with that personally. Letting the brands decide is like having the fox guarding the hen house...

Yes, these are the costumers watches and costumers can do anything they want with their watches...agreed....but it is their brand (rolex in this case) and they also can do what they want with it and the parts they manufacture, we may agree or disagree but it serves whatever strategy they have defined for themselves.

Actually they can't do anything they want - are you familiar with the Sherman Act in the US? If not you should read up on it. There is a reason that when class action lawsuits have been brought against brands in the US for this behavior they decided to settle rather than let it play out in court. Jurisdictions in other countries have found these practices illegal. There is a drive right now to get US congress to pay attention to this problem. These practices are clearly illegal, but they need enough traction to get the attention of lawmakers who will actually take the time to enforce the laws. If you believe they have the right to engage in monopolistic behavior, you are mistaken.

It's their name after all. It's like your name Al. Once you service a watch its mine again...but what if I then do something and start saying it came from your service shop? what if I modify your work and sell it?

Sorry this analogy doesn't really work. Not sure what you are trying to say here really.

I still hate that guys rant, it's a little whiney...much prefer your and Gatorcpa's more thoughtful and less self serving explanations and insights.

Yes it's whiney, but that doesn't mean it's not accurate.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
6,832
Likes
13,793
Actually they can't do anything they want - are you familiar with the Sherman Act in the US? If not you should read up on it

Good point on the anti trust issue.

So being on vacation and a little bored I did some reading. I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, although I did meet one once. and I have had my fair share of legal dealings in commerce and service industry issues. But, I am not in any way a legal expert to bare with me.

As I see it there are a couple of issues that line up here. All of them can be acceptable.

1- A brand or owner is allowed to limit sales of their product to authorized dealers, retailers or brand stores only, and subsequently able to take action should a non authorized retailer without a trade agreement is commercially selling their parts.
2- They can restrict service IF the Brand doesn't say you cannot take the watch to a watchmaker of choice, nor is it saying you cannot service it yourself, what it may say is "we recommend service is only done by XXX Brand authorized service center in order to ensure the appropriate original parts and procedures are followed etc" language that is already part of most literature for most brands
3- The watch will and can work with the non original parts i.e (you can choose not to follow their suggestion and get a different screw for your bracelet and it will work fine, it will just not be the original one.

Also by itself their practice is not necessarily a monopoly since we're only talking one brand (with Rolex) a monopoly may apply more to SWATCH group if all the brands they represent had to be dependent on each other and restrict other competitor's brands from actively being sold or maintained. But even this is not the case because no matter what Rolex policy may be it does not affect what Seiko, Casio, Omega or any other brand may do or not do and their performance on the market. Now If Rolex somehow was the only authorized importer of, say, bracelet screws and did not provide fair access to other brands then it may have a monopoly or trust forming.

Their practice also does not limit the ability of third party (independent watchmakers) to perform their jobs or have a successful business, it only limits their ability to work on the specific brand watch with specific original parts that are not for sale. As such the watchmaker can still work on the watch if they want, but he or she will not have the original parts to service that specific brand. However they are not in any way limiting the access to other brands parts or service agreements so again they are not monopolizing the market.

Monopoly as applied to trade is:

DEFINITION of 'Monopoly'
A situation in which a single company or group owns all or nearly all of the market for a given type of product or service. By definition, monopoly is characterized by an absence of competition, which often results in high prices and inferior products.

According to a strict academic definition, a monopoly is a market containing a single firm. In such instances where a single firm holds monopoly power, the company will typically be forced to divest its assets. Antimonopoly regulation protects free markets from being dominated by a single entity.


As applicable to the Sherman act:
  1. Sherman Antitrust Act. A federal anti-monopoly and anti-trust statute, passed in 1890 as 15 U.S.C. §§ 1-7 and amended by the Clayton Act in 1914 (15 U.S.C. § 12-27), which prohibits activities that restrict interstate commerce and competition in the marketplace.
and in more general terms:

the exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service.
"his likely motive was to protect his regional monopoly on furs"


To note neither of this definitions is applicable,

1- Rolex or Omega is not limiting the market, neither does it own a majority of the market, and there certainly no absence of competition. They are limiting only the supply of their product and their product only to third parties.
2- No activity described here "Prohibits" activities or restricts interestate commerce or competition, if anything, given the amount of people that are willing to forego buying from them because of their restrictive practices it would promote competition and commerce of other brands
3- There is no exclusive possession or control of the supply of a trade in watches or watchmakers...solely on a specific brand. In other words, if they come out with a way where an independent watchmaker cannot service any watch of any brand without going through them or working fir them then there would be an issue.

So in an on itself the legal paradigm is not clear. Watchmakers are being affected, but only on the specific brands that take this steps and not on a trade or specific market on a whole. Costumers retain their choice of service and maintenance but are restricted to go through one channel only in order to get the original parts that are not accessible elsewhere, however that can buy another brand on the open market instead or chose to supply with aftermarket parts.

Please, I am just theorizing here, don't anyone all of a sudden get the idea that I am making a case either way or that I prefer one thing over the other, I am just taking the less obvious side for analysis sake.
 
Posts
6,604
Likes
11,339
But on these watches what is so wrong with having the manufacturer service your watch? is it a cost issue or an issue (very valid) of not having an center to service it within your continent, forcing you to ship for something as stupid as a screw. And I'd agree with that 100%, a pain in the ass..

Speaking as a huge vintage omega enthusiast I have chosen not to have omega service my vintage watches - high cost (about 2-4x what I can get it serviced for) and total distrust that they will not do exactly what I want. For every vintage watch I have serviced, I enclose written instructions as to what is to be done and I expect these to be followed. I don't have the confidence omega will be able to do this for me.
 
Posts
6,832
Likes
13,793
Speaking as a huge vintage omega enthusiast I have chosen not to have omega service my vintage watches - high cost (about 2-4x what I can get it serviced for) and total distrust that they will not do exactly what I want. For every vintage watch I have serviced, I enclose written instructions as to what is to be done and I expect these to be followed. I don't have the confidence omega will be able to do this for me.
Neither do I with vintage...and with Rolex it's even worse.
 
Posts
27,689
Likes
70,368
Please, I am just theorizing here, don't anyone all of a sudden get the idea that I am making a case either way or that I prefer one thing over the other, I am just taking the less obvious side for analysis sake.

Well you had me fooled, that's for sure. 😉

For me I find it hard to square your analysis above that nothing is wrong here with the fact that Cartier settled the class action suit brought against them, and the recovery was reported to be in excess of 10 million USD (most of that through the consumer class, not the watchmaker class - again this is not about watchmakers, but consumers). I guess if they were not violating laws they just felt very generous or something...

Also you are probably not aware that over 90% of balance springs in Swiss watches are made by Swatch, so they pretty much control the market. By any objective means, that is a monopoly. Someone mentioned that Sellita is "laughing all the way to the bank" with Swatch stopping the sale of parts. In reality Sellita is shitting their pants because where do you think they are getting their balance springs, wheels and pallet forks/escape wheels from? Sellita was one of the top complainants with Comco...

http://www.europastar.com/watch-knowledge/1004087450-mechanical-who-will-succeed-eta.html

The legality of this is far from the slam dunk you present.

Anyway, I'm done with this one I think.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
6,832
Likes
13,793
Well you had me fooled, that's for sure. 😉

For me I find it hard to square your analysis above that nothing is wrong here with the fact that Cartier settled the class action suit brought against them, and the recovery was reported to be in excess of 10 million USD (most of that through the consumer class, not the watchmaker class - again this is not about watchmakers, but consumers). I guess if they were not violating laws they just felt very generous or something...

Also you are probably not aware that over 90% of balance springs in Swiss watches are made by Swatch, so they pretty much control the market. By any objective means, that is a monopoly. Someone mentioned that Sellita is "laughing all the way to the bank" with Swatch stopping the sale of parts. In reality Sellita is shitting their pants because where do you think they are getting their balance springs, wheels and pallet forks/escape wheels from? Sellita was one of the top complainants with Comco...

http://www.europastar.com/watch-knowledge/1004087450-mechanical-who-will-succeed-eta.html

The legality of this is far from the slam dunk you present.

Anyway, I'm done with this one I think.

Cheers, Al

I do start saying I'm.playing Devils advocate and have made clear I would prefer things stay as they where/ are.

It's 3 separate issues;
1- do I like it? No
2- do I understand it? Yes
3- are they legally allowed to do it? I think yes, you think no, I don't really know and time will tell

As for legality as I say I'm no lawyer so yes, not a slam dunk.
Edited:
 
Posts
27,689
Likes
70,368
For anyone reading this thread who thinks that the practices of watch companies to restrict parts is not legal, and if you live in the US, I would encourage you to write a letter to your congressman (or woman).

Right now Mr. Andre Fleury - watchmaker in California (who was involved in the class action suit against Cartier several years ago) is working through his congressman (Huffman) to get an investigation started with the DOJ/FTC. I would encourage you as watch owners to write your congressman and ask them to look into this matter, and support the start of a formal investigation.

This appeal has gone out to many watchmakers and quite a few states are involved at this point, but this issue is not really about the remaining 3,000 or so watchmakers in the US. It is about the consumer, and without the voice of the consumer involved it will be difficult for this to get enough traction to make anything happen.

This is something you can do directly to possibly impact these restrictions that will affect you all eventually.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
27,689
Likes
70,368
I do start saying I'm.playing Devils advocate and have made clear I would prefer things stay as they where/ are.

It's 3 separate issues;
1- do I like it? No
2- do I understand it? Yes
3- are they legally allowed to do it? I think yes, you think no, I don't really know and time will tell

As for legality as I say I'm no lawyer so yes, not a slam dunk.

Since you say you don't like it, I do hope you will write your congressman. Let the DOJ decide if it's legal or not...

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
9,217
Likes
24,050
@Al, that suggestion . Write to Congress reps supporting an investigation deserves it's own thread.. don't know if you want to bear that cross, but that's not top level headline.. I think many here would like to know about it an would probably do (and many may miss buried in this long - though interesting - thread)
 
Posts
12,646
Likes
17,078
For anyone reading this thread who thinks that the practices of watch companies to restrict parts is not legal, and if you live in the US, I would encourage you to write a letter to your congressman (or woman).

I have a feeling that the restrictions on parts sales are legal, but perhaps they should not be. That's really what needs to be addressed. Has Mr. Fleury (or his attorneys) have posted a copy of his letter to be replicated by others and addressed to their Congressmen?

BTW, what's the law in Canada (or the provinces) on this subject?
gatorcpa
 
Posts
5,337
Likes
9,072
I can only say, be careful of biting the hand that feeds you Rolex, Swatch, IWC, et al.
they could not care less. they are in the business of selling new watches. Factory: you want to keep your old one? send it to us and we decide, if we like to repair it. many old rolex subs are no longer supported at all. that is the trend. kind regards. achim
 
Posts
3,771
Likes
8,552
they could not care less. they are in the business of selling new watches. Factory: you want to keep your old one? send it to us and we decide, if we like to repair it. many old rolex subs are no longer supported at all. that is the trend. kind regards. achim

A very poor state of affairs.
 
Posts
27,689
Likes
70,368
And just to illustrate why I would love to be able to service my own watches, but even with a parts account Swatch won't sell me parts for anything above Omega...



Yes it's the 33rd today according to my watch serviced by them about a year ago. I guess it will be heading back to Germany for another visit...oh yes they are protecting their brand image so well by not letting me fix my own watch...not.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
3,771
Likes
8,552
I hear that Nick is no longer repairing Swiss made. I no longer trust Omega Service at my local AD. Three times back to regulate my PO to within specs. That's right, three times! And their watchmakers are assessed!

"The question the ACCC should be asking the brands is this: how do you actually know that independent Australian Watchmakers are not capable of providing a service to your brand standard, when you have never assessed any of them?"

http://nickhacko.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/the-last-repair-job-no-2664478.html
Edited:
 
Posts
27,689
Likes
70,368
@Al, that suggestion . Write to Congress reps supporting an investigation deserves it's own thread.. don't know if you want to bear that cross, but that's not top level headline.. I think many here would like to know about it an would probably do (and many may miss buried in this long - though interesting - thread)

It's a risk for me posting any of my thoughts on this subject on this or any watch forum. I know for a fact my posts have been monitored in the past - I have letters from legal departments to prove it...

However again this is not about watchmakers as some want to paint this - it's about you guys as watch owners. If I end up not being able to service watches t make my living, I can simply go back to engineering or do something else entirely. I don't want to do that, but I can.

I'll make another thread...
 
Posts
27,689
Likes
70,368
And just to illustrate why I would love to be able to service my own watches, but even with a parts account Swatch won't sell me parts for anything above Omega...



Yes it's the 33rd today according to my watch serviced by them about a year ago. I guess it will be heading back to Germany for another visit...oh yes they are protecting their brand image so well by not letting me fix my own watch...not.

Cheers, Al

The 34th today - email sent to Swatch...told them they can fix it under warranty or provide me with the parts to do it myself. I know what the answer will be...
 
Posts
27,689
Likes
70,368
I have a feeling that the restrictions on parts sales are legal, but perhaps they should not be. That's really what needs to be addressed. Has Mr. Fleury (or his attorneys) have posted a copy of his letter to be replicated by others and addressed to their Congressmen?

BTW, what's the law in Canada (or the provinces) on this subject?
gatorcpa

Not arguing, but curious why would it be illegal to restrict sales of car parts, but not watch parts?

To your last question about Canada or the provinces, I'll be honest I have not pursued this here. Why? Simple answer - retribution. These companies can cut you off for whatever reason they want, and in the vast majority of cases they won't even tell you why they cut you off.

Here is the latest update sent out yesterday on the letter writing campaign....of course this is geared towards watch and clockmakers, which IMO is the wrong approach - watch consumers are the group that needs to be complaining...note that English is not his first language so it's a little rough on the grammar side of things...

Watchmakers/Clockmakers:
Thank you all, but a little more effort we are going good; please call one or two friend in our business and ask them to contact their Congressmen/Senators, we should be able to cover all states, and better if more than one contact the same one. Example letter at the bottom of this page.

Below coy of the package sent to the FTC/DOJ today, front page only, 24 pages alltogether.

Dear Sirs,

As today the Congressmen and or Senator of the following States received letters from their respective constituents’, independent watchmakers, inquiring about the Swiss watch cartel “Refusal to Supply” and “Anti-Competition” practice I previously presented to your offices:

MI, TN, CA, IN, OR, WI, IL, VA, PA, NV, NJ, KS, OH, FL, HI, WA, WA DC.

It is undeniable that without your diligence in that matter more small businesses will be terminated and taken over by the immensely powerful Swiss watch cartel. The totality of the consumers will be then at the mercy of the Swiss watch cartel. Competition and price control will no longer exist.

I was alerted however that more will be contacting their Congressmen/Senators and I will forward them to your offices when available.

Attached: Letters and confirmation of letters to the above mentioned States Congressmen/Senators.
Sincerely
Andre Fleury


Example of letter:

Dear Congressman,
It has come to my attention that the DOJ/FTC is surveying an official complaint issue by Mr. Fleury through his congressman Huffman from California.

This closely relates to my business and lack of business caused by the monopolistic and anti-competitive practice of the Swiss watch companies, practice made successful by Refusal to Supply the necessary parts to independent watchmakers needs to perform watch servicing to the consumers.

I earnestly inquire if you could contact the FTC/DOJ and let me know where we stand in this survey and if help to save watchmaker's business is on the way. In the last two decades over 34,000 independent watchmakers lost their business not by lack of work but the Refusal to Supply to eliminate the competition.
 
Posts
6,832
Likes
13,793
I sent it to Schumer, Gibson and Maloney to cover all parties.
Edited: