Nick Hacko rant about Swiss watch companies not selling parts to independent watchmakers

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Great insight, as always. And herein lyes the paradox. Because imagine 5 or 10 or a hundred of these hack jobs and then imagine a number of Rolex, or Omega or whatever brand performing poorly as a result. Not keeping time well....loosing hands...not having the proper sealing and getting water damaged at 5 meters when it's supposed to go down to 1000 m etc....and before you know it that brand is no longer reliable, no longer great, everyone will "know" there are mechanical and structural issues with this or that line of watches...and then the brands are left on the defensive trying to explain unreliable or unscrupulous watchmakers did not follow protocol or did a poor job. ...

I'm not quite sure if this will be the perception. I'm inclined to follow the luxury auto paradigm. If say my Lexus LS doesn't run right after I get it back from the shop, I'm more inclined to blame the mechanics rather then the car brand itself. Will a bad repair experience tarnish my feelings toward Lexus (whom I love) or the auto shop I went to. But I know if I was told that my mechanic of choice couldn't successfully service my vehicle because Toyota restricts them from getting parts, that would probably be enough to look elsewhere for my next car.
 
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I'm not quite sure if this will be the perception. I'm inclined to follow the luxury auto paradigm. If say my Lexus LS doesn't run right after I get it back from the shop, I'm more inclined to blame the mechanics rather then the car brand itself. Will a bad repair experience tarnish my feelings toward Lexus (whom I love) or the auto shop I went to. But I know if I was told that my mechanic of choice couldn't successfully service my vehicle because Toyota restricts them from getting parts, that would probably be enough to look elsewhere for my next car.

Yeah but that's when an obvious issue arises, other things are not as obvious, or are too blatant.

For example: see how many posts there are here about people that bought an oMega (or whatever) and then it was loosing seconds, or gaining them, or the crown fell etc and their initial response most of the time is (I am disappointed with the brand, or I won't buy Omega again, or I should have bought Rolex)

Or how many threads list people that had repeated issues and discounted a whole brand because of it.

Now imagine 100.000 watches having small issues, not right after service, but within a year instead of 3. Running late, or early, chorono's jumping, a hand that falls here, or there. Before you know it everyone is talking about the lack of performance or quality for the brand (this happened to Alpha Romeo on the eighties for example)

Imagine a myriad of people commenting "I love the Omega designs but I keep reading about issues with time keeping" to "I hear they leak water" or "the hands are delicate"...not knowing that there are a lot of ill-repaired watches with non original parts on them (like Al described). We have all seen these comments, even other week there is some comment about a specific issue that is transferred to a whole brand " I owner to the shop and they where rude, never buying omega again!!!" well, that's obviously an individual issue but then the threads continue and one of the responses ,may be "h god, what a nightmare, I was going to stop by my omega boutique but now I read this and I'm scared...not sure I want omega anymore...." and these are ACTUAL commentaries we read daily on this forum alone.

Normally some cool minds here will say "this happens, human error, go back, be nice, it's not the brand" but many many times you get a lot of people expressing being scared or hesitant because they have read some outrageous posting somewhere.

Of course you can't control everything...but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to control some things.
 
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if I was told that my mechanic of choice couldn't successfully service my vehicle because Toyota restricts them from getting parts, that would probably be enough to look elsewhere for my next car.
I wouldn't buy a Toyota under those circumstances, but I would buy a Mercedes, a BMW, a Rolls or a Ferrari and understand that I'm.buying something not everyone can access, repair or maintain, and i would account for the added insurance and maintenance costs attached to that purchase. I would not have the expectation of buying a 100000 dollar car and have it maintained for the cost and the mechanic of a Toyota.

Same thing for watches, I spent 5 to 15 g on a great watch, I account for the cost of maintenance and service. I don't expect it will the cost me the same as a plastic swatch to maintain. And that's the issue many times ; people buy way above their own pay grade or expectation and then find a deal for a 5000 watch but look into avoiding 400 to 800 every 4 to 8 years to maintain it. That's a 100 to 200 a year! Or 2 dollars a day! But no, it's not good, we all want to get our cake and eat it too.

But I'll agree, if the though process is " I want a watch that can be cheaply serviced by my favorite neighborhood watchmaker " then one should definitely avoid these brands... Or maybe just ask the watchmaker to buy the watches for them that they feel comfortable with or can have access to parts...at the end of the day the Toyota will take you from point a to point b, maybe less comfortable a ride, maybe slower, but you're safer if you have mechanical issues.
 
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Will this system avoid hacks? no, but at least the brands can say: "if a third party hacked it, you got what you paid for, if we hacked it then we are responsible (as repairs are normally under warranty) it's not a matter of avoiding 100% of the errors, it's about owning ONLY those errors committed by the brand itself.

The brands can do that now - there is nothing stopping them from disowning poor repairs done by others right now. One could argue they are already doing this since they only offer their warranty on repairs done by themselves.

Restricting parts and technical information will only make this situation worse, and increase the number of watches that are repaired using bad techniques and generic parts. If their goal, as you say, is to protect themselves from a poor brand perception with improperly repaired watches floating around out there, they are going about it all wrong in my view.
 
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Well, given you're right on the thik of it as a professional you probably have a broader view than most so...as you say, complicated.
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Same thing for watches, I spent 5 to 15 g on a great watch, I account for the cost of maintenance and service. I don't expect it will the cost me the same as a plastic swatch to maintain. And that's the issue many times ; people buy way above their own pay grade or expectation and then find a deal for a 5000 watch but look into avoiding 400 to 800 every 4 to 8 years to maintain it. That's a 100 to 200 a year! Or 2 dollars a day! But no, it's not good, we all want to get our cake and eat it too.
IMO, this issue of "brand perception" is a red herring thrown out there by the watch companies to justify the restrictions to the watch-buying public. They are not the real reason for cutting out the parts suppliers. Having an independent parts network is very expensive and sales just don't bring in enough revenue to justify that expense. As watch movements get more sophisticated and use more non-interchangeable parts, the cost to supply middlemen rises ever greater. The watch companies have just reached their limit on losses from parts distribution.

The only reason the automobile manufacturers have distribution networks at all is that in most jurisdictions they are required by local law.

Watch companies aren't burdened by this legal requirement, and likely never will be.
gatorcpa
 
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IMO, this issue of "brand perception" is a red herring thrown out there by the watch companies to justify the restrictions to the watch-buying public.

Bingo! 👍
 
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this issue of "brand perception" is a red herring thrown out there by the watch companies to justify the restrictions to the watch-buying public.
Maybe. I don't completely agree. After all you buy omega or rolex over casio, or Mercedes and BMW over Toyota it's because you have the perception that those brands are better, or are better suited, to your tastes and needs. That perception is not accidental. It may be the result of a proven record of quality or a clever marketing campaign. Either way it's real and has a direct impact on how the product is sold, at what price, where, and to whom.
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Maybe. I don't completely agree. After all you buy omega or rolex over casio, or Mercedes and BMW over Toyota it's because you have the perception that those brands are better, or are better suited, to your tastes and needs. .
I don't disagree with you. I certainly buy cars that way. There are a lot more factors at play with watches for someone who is a vintage collector. But I'll go with your premise for new watch buyers. However, do you actually interview the mechanics in the shop at the new car dealer or the watchmakers at Rolex in New York? I certainly don't.

The issue here is what happens after that warranty period expires or you purchase it used without a warranty. Should you be required to go to your dealership for a simple oil change? Should the manufacturer get to decide this for you? Do you trust them to do what is best for you, the customer, when it may not be best for them?

Again, this is not an issue of cost from the consumer side, only access.

That perception is not accidental. It may be the result of a proven record of quality or a clever marketing campaign. Either way it's real and has a direct impact on how the product is sold, at what price, where, and to whom.
Here's where we part company. Brand image is by definition not reality. It's about shaping your perception of reality. I just don't see how the destruction of heritage by refusing to service (or by preventing others from servicing) older models of watches helps any company's brand image. We're talking about you, Rolex, JLC and IWC. Omega (and the rest of Swatch) is heading in that direction.

There are plenty of fine quality products that fail and lousy products that succeed, all based only on brand image.
gatorcpa
 
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There are plenty of fine quality products that fail and lousy products that succeed, all based only on brand image.
exactly, which is why they need to make sure they project a good image in ADDITION of having a good product, specially on these days of Instagram and household reviews.. I don't disagree that it is bothersome, and as I said there is a line somewhere where it is too much. I am not sure one can purchase Rolls parts, or bentley or Porsche. maybe you can, I don't know.

But on these watches what is so wrong with having the manufacturer service your watch? is it a cost issue or an issue (very valid) of not having an center to service it within your continent, forcing you to ship for something as stupid as a screw. And I'd agree with that 100%, a pain in the ass.

I just don't think this is just a matter of them wanting to get more money out of service and part sales...it could be, but I feel there is also the end to keep the integrity of the process within the brand.
 
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I am not sure one can purchase Rolls parts, or bentley or Porsche. maybe you can, I don't know.
As I stated previously, they are forced to by law in most places. What is a trend in the automobile industry is the use of propriety tools for diagnosis of relatively simple matters like "check engine" lights, etc. Independent mechanics, even those who are factory certified, sometimes need to buy dealers time just to determine what is wrong.

I just don't think this is just a matter of them wanting to get more money out of service and part sales...it could be, but I feel there is also the end to keep the integrity of the process within the brand
Don't think it's about getting more money out of the service department. Probably not feasible, as they would probably need to charge double what the current cost is when you take into account costs of re-manufacturing old parts, storage, depreciation, labor, etc. to make any money at all. These new policies are all about stopping the losses.

My point has more to do about celebration of brand heritage, and not just in pictures and books. It's why many American car manufacturers sell some of the older machinery and dies to independent outfits once they've deemed the equipment expendable.

The Swiss used to routinely do this. They sold millions in old parts making equipment to the Communist Bloc after WWII. There are versions of 70+ year old manual-wind movements still being made today in China. A lot of those new parts will fit the old Venus and Valjoux movements.

Don't believe the hype. It's greed uber alles.
gatorcpa
 
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But on these watches what is so wrong with having the manufacturer service your watch?

Maybe nothing, or maybe everything. It depends on the watch and the person who owns it. What always gets lost in these discussions it seems is that it's my watch, and I should have the choice to get it serviced where I want to get it serviced. Lack of choice is not good on many levels, from the watchmaker who loses his ability to properly make a living, to the material houses that no longer have enough business to stay afloat, and yes the owner of the watch who should not be subject to a monopoly...

You talk about drawing a line, but who decides where the line gets drawn and what is the proper balance?

I just don't think this is just a matter of them wanting to get more money out of service and part sales...it could be, but I feel there is also the end to keep the integrity of the process within the brand.

Again this "protecting the integrity" is the argument they want you to believe. It's all part of the carefully crafted Swiss mystique that many people buy into. Once you have seen the "sausage being made" you realize a watch factory is just like a car factory, or a washing machine factory, or any other factory - they just happen to make watches instead of some other widget. With very few exceptions, it's all massed produced assembly line work, and I'm not just talking about the big guys that make millions of mid-range watches like Rolex and Omega.

VC is one of the "big three" and they make what, maybe 50,000 watches a year or so? Maybe less actually...I would have to check my notes. Regardless, even they use some degree of automation - here is a video I took in their manufacturing plant - the worker is vacuuming off barrel assemblies here:


You will notice she is working on a large table, and there is a gap right in front of her. Once she cleans the barrel assemblies, she presses a button, and then this happens:


The movements she is working on are carried under the table top on a conveyor system, each carrier stops and a pneumatic cylinder raises the movement up so she can drop the barrel in the movement. It then retracts and she presses the button to move another one in place - there were maybe 100 movements in that table that will all get a barrel dropped into them before being moved along to another operation...not exactly a Ford assembly plant, but the same idea really.

At the PP factory, they had machines operating overnight "lights out" machining parts while no one was there, and they came in to a completed bin of parts in the morning. So you can only imagine what is being done in factories where they make orders of magnitude more watches than PP or VC do. It's hype as gator has said...



Cheers, Al
 
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Maybe nothing, or maybe everything. It depends on the watch and the person who owns it. What always gets lost in these discussions it seems is that it's my watch, and I should have the choice to get it serviced where I want to get it serviced. Lack of choice is not good on many levels, from the watchmaker who loses his ability to properly make a living, to the material houses that no longer have enough business to stay afloat, and yes the owner of the watch who should not be subject to a monopoly...

You talk about drawing a line, but who decides where the line gets drawn and what is the proper balance?



Again this "protecting the integrity" is the argument they want you to believe. It's all part of the carefully crafted Swiss mystique that many people buy into. Once you have seen the "sausage being made" you realize a watch factory is just like a car factory, or a washing machine factory, or any other factory - they just happen to make watches instead of some other widget. With very few exceptions, it's all massed produced assembly line work, and I'm not just talking about the big guys that make millions of mid-range watches like Rolex and Omega.

VC is one of the "big three" and they make what, maybe 50,000 watches a year or so? Maybe less actually...I would have to check my notes. Regardless, even they use some degree of automation - here is a video I took in their manufacturing plant - the worker is vacuuming off barrel assemblies here:


You will notice she is working on a large table, and there is a gap right in front of her. Once she cleans the barrel assemblies, she presses a button, and then this happens:


The movements she is working on are carried under the table top on a conveyor system, each carrier stops and a pneumatic cylinder raises the movement up so she can drop the barrel in the movement. It then retracts and she presses the button to move another one in place - there were maybe 100 movements in that table that will all get a barrel dropped into them before being moved along to another operation...not exactly a Ford assembly plant, but the same idea really.

At the PP factory, they had machines operating overnight "lights out" machining parts while no one was there, and they came in to a completed bin of parts in the morning. So you can only imagine what is being done in factories where they make orders of magnitude more watches than PP or VC do. It's hype as gator has said...



Cheers, Al
Again, good points but...

I don't know who draws the line...but in this case it seems the brands do.

Also it is not that I am believing any specific hype or dream of quality...i'm just saying it is an important factor to protect and continue the brand identity and projection whatever it may be and however misguided...I am not getting into this or that brand and whether it's hype or not...I am talking marketing and it's effect on any brand or product from a sales perspective. I am not wearing a t shirt with an R or an O printed on it.

Yes, these are the costumers watches and costumers can do anything they want with their watches...agreed....but it is their brand (rolex in this case) and they also can do what they want with it and the parts they manufacture, we may agree or disagree but it serves whatever strategy they have defined for themselves. It's their name after all. It's like your name Al. Once you service a watch its mine again...but what if I then do something and start saying it came from your service shop? what if I modify your work and sell it?

But, I do get and agree that there are broader consequences in terms of the watchmaker industry and in terms of consumer satisfaction. time will tell if those have a negative or positive impact on the brands themselves.

Regarding the car issue I suppose they are required by law to do so because of security and liability issues? If so, it seems sensible that if Lexus is responsible for a defect that can kill someone and therefore in order to have that liability chain clear they enforce the parts issue...then Rolex and Omega should be liable for making me late for lunch....

Anyway. Great and thoughtful conversation. I still hate that guys rant, it's a little whiney...much prefer your and Gatorcpa's more thoughtful and less self serving explanations and insights.
 
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Complete agreement with Al. It's my watch. No one should tell me where to have it serviced. My money. My decision. The end.
 
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Complete agreement with Al. It's my watch. No one should tell me where to have it serviced. My money. My decision. The end.
well...their parts, their decision...not so much the end.

Believe me. I wish it was so for my sake to. just playing devils advocate and trying to see the other side.
 
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Believe me. I wish it was so for my sake to. just playing devils advocate and trying to see the other side
So am I. But it's so penny wise and pound foolish.

But in the end, you are right. It's their product.
gatorcpa
 
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Regarding the car issue I suppose they are required by law to do so because of security and liability issues? If so, it seems sensible that if Lexus is responsible for a defect that can kill someone and therefore in order to have that liability chain clear they enforce the parts issue...then Rolex and Omega should be liable for making me late for lunch....
Or early. 😀

I think it's a little more complicated than that. Remember that virtually all auto dealers are independent businesses not owned by the manufacturers. Some are larger than others (read - Autonation), but the states generally enforce this separation as an anti-monopoly practice. Since the manufacturers are already selling to independent 3rd party dealers, they probably would be open to discrimination lawsuits if they refused to sell to other mechanics with the proper certifications, many of whom were trained by the factory when they worked for the dealerships.

You also have to remember that there are multi-billion dollar auto parts stores that sell factory parts purchased directly from the manufacturers at retail. I suspect this retail distribution network is profitable, whereas sales to the small handful of watch part suppliers are not, simply due to lack of volume.

Now that the watch companies own most of the factory certified repair shops, the discrimination argument is out the window when they sell to no one. Unfortunately, it looks as if Swatch will eventually either buy out or refuse to direct sell parts to any independent watchmakers soon. Maybe a couple of years, maybe a decade, who knows? This is what they did to most of their AD's on the sales side, and I see no reason why they won't continue down this road.

I really hope I'm wrong on this,
gatorcpa
 
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Recently I had to have my vintage IWC repaired. A serious flying injury, a "broken balance staff" apparently! it ultimately had to go back to the factory at Shaffhausen. I viewed it then, and still do so, as an example of restrictive practice by a Swiss manufacturer. I was told that IWC wouldn't supply the part to my watchmaker of choice. This meant that to have it repaired I would have to have the part machined or find a 60 year old spare in someone's saved parts box. No luck there. To machine it, I was reliably informed, would cost me far more than the Watch was worth, not just financially but also in that it would no longer be fully original, which to me is no better than it not working for a vintage piece like this. So off it went to IWC and 12 weeks later it came back refreshed and obviously at a cost much less than I was ever quoted for having the part machined and repaired in Australia. I just put it down to the cost of doing business with a 60 year old watch. I usually factor such things as service into a watch when buying, but rarely give much thought to a future repair. I will now though.

Anyway, would I have loved to have had it repaired by Nick Hacko or James Robinson or another of the half dozen horological master repairers here in Aust? Of course! No doubt about it! But the manufacturer had me by the short and curlies and that's where my mind had to follow. I understand that it is a choice though, but to maintain the integrity of the watch I had to choose a functioning original over a non- functioning or non-original watch. Not even my watchmaker begrudged me my choice in the end.

In the end, I didn't feel as though I was directly putting any watchmaker in Australia out of work, though indirectly I was participating. I did, and still do, feel an enforced collaboration with the dark side of uncomfortableness. But for me I couldn't see a satisfactory alternative.

I am not sure if this policy of restriction will work in the long term. I wonder if it won't aid other movement makers who will be grateful for the business that will be thrown their way. I doubt if The Swatch Group would care, really. Be careful here, hubris is a bitch. Still, Selitta must be Laughing all the way to the bank as the Swatch group of companies get out of movement parts market.

I hear that quality Chinese movements are already appearing onto the market? The SWIC and Sea-gull movements are improving in quality and heading for more expensive and complicated pieces. The Sea-Gull ST3600 movement, used in the M222s, is known to be very similar to the Unitas 6498, I believe.

I am sure That your average throw-away consumer doesn't give a toss if their Omega, Rolex, Longines or even their Fossil has an ETA, a Sea-gull, Selitta or Unitas movement. Omega obviously knows this and I suppose that's why the largest part of their catalogue is still devoted to Quartz watches. It's all about the image outside of a dedicated market of enthusiasts.

Gatorcpa has said it succinctly "this issue of "brand perception" is a red herring thrown out there by the watch companies to justify the restrictions"

Parts restriction can only ever be about revenue raising. They can't argue it's about quality if they aren't prepared to train and certify watch repairers who can then receive parts and repair their brands. I am sure watchmakers would be agreeable to follow such training regimes if they were offered. Wouldn't that be a win win for all?

The restrictive parts policy by Swiss watch companies effects all of us. I note that Offrei now includes a message in its web pages. Nick Hacko is not alone in bringing this to the attention of consumers and others. http://www.ofrei.com/page1568.html

I can only say, be careful of biting the hand that feeds you Rolex, Swatch, IWC, et al.

Anyway just putting it out there as I have had 20 minutes to shoot. On my way to annoy my Omega service centre about why my expensive SMP is running -10 secs a day after 10 years without a service 😀
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I am sure watchmakers would be agreeable to follow such training regimes if they were offered. Wouldn't that be a win win for all?
Yes
 
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The biggest driver in everything is the Marketing strategy of high end brands these days. The whole plan is the status of said brand and number one BRAND LOYALTY Omega has gone from ADs to Boutique,s similar to Rolex.

Buy at Omega
Service at Omega
The 98% of the people that pay 10k + for a watch have no issue at all with this as the are led to believe that this is the best care for their watch.

We have it even with a boat motor now days where warranty Will not be valid unless brand name oils and lubricants (at twice the cost of normal packaged) are used for the Life of the warranty. Using another oil will not affect the engine or the running but the brand wants you to use their branded oils their service centre their parts.