Nick Hacko rant about Swiss watch companies not selling parts to independent watchmakers

Well, I'll assume I'm "some"

I should think it's both, but while a costumer can always send the watch to repair to the service center as much as it may be bothersome, the watchmaker is losing business. I would think a situation that forces you to close shop and change careers has a much deeper effect on your life than one that forces me to pay postage. And there would be other watch makers with less of a choice or means to switch careers.

So yes, I think this affects watch makers first and consumers second.

The big picture seems to be escaping you, but you can believe what you like.

Cheers, Al

Not sure how you're misunderstanding me AL. What escapes me? You say this is a consumer / owner primary issue, I think it's both but with the consequences being by far more dire to watch makers. Somehow you make me feel like this statement puts me on the wrong side of the issue.

It's not that I " believe" watch makers will be affected....you yourself have said you cab close shop and work on something else.

And yes of course consumers ad owners are affected but their livelihood is not at risk.

And yes there's the broader legal issues etc and I agree on those although I do see the point of view of the big brands and debate the legality of it. But I agree on the cause which is why I did send those letters.

If I'm offending you somehow I apologize.

I think it has always been legal to restrict, but auto parts manufacturers have a big incentive not to. There are auto parts stores on every corner where I live and most have access to factory ordering for OEM parts as do the dealers. There is just too much competition out there. Also, bear in mind that most OEM auto parts are not made by Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc. They are made by contractors, whose after-market sales are not controlled by the auto companies.

Watches seem to be a lot different, particularly in the case of Rolex, Swatch Group and Seiko to name just a few. These companies actually do own most, if not all of their part manufacturing facilities. So there is very little competition when it comes to watch parts. Supply only to "certified" repair shops or a few independents. Virtually no competition.

Probably similar more to the consumer electronics industry than the automobile industry. Go try to find a belt for a 50 year old Dual turntable. It's difficult, but possible. A fanbelt for a 1965 Pontiac GTO is a lot easier. Why, because there's competition. Even if GM doesn't make them anymore, a half-dozen other companies do.

What is illegal in the auto business in most states, is that manufacturers are not allowed to directly own dealerships. Those restrictions were put in during the great depression when the dealers were afraid that the manufacturers were going to squeeze them out when sales fell and money got tight. The dealers knew how to write big checks to their elected representatives at the state level.

Money well spent at the time, if you ask me. That's how government works and it's been that way since July 5, 1776.
gatorcpa

Sergio,

You aren't offending me, but I admit I do get frustrated. It seems to me throughout this thread you have made an effort to paint the impact to the consumer as being pretty much trivial. This is a good example of what I am referring to:

"I would think a situation that forces you to close shop and change careers has a much deeper effect on your life than one that forces me to pay postage."

If all you really think the impact is to a watch owner is that they will have to pay postage, then honestly you really are not getting it. Your thinking on this matter seems quite short sighted based on what you have written, and at one point you said this:

"I personally don't concern myself too much. I'll enjoy the watch and if in 20 years I can't service it I'll find something else to enjoy. 20 years is not a bad deal"

If that is your personal approach to watches and collecting, that is certainly your choice, but I'm sure that many here would disagree with this. Some appear to have almost given up the fight already, but I think those people are in the minority. Keep in mind that the way things are now with the brands, with independent service providers still out there as an alternative, is not likely to be the way of the future. In fact it would be pretty naïve to think that things won't change with how the brands do things when the local guys can no longer service any of the modern watches or high end stuff. And yes there will be a black market for parts, just like there is now, and we will be paying huge premiums on parts that are not easily available like they are now - the cost for everyone will be going up. Omega already jacked up some parts by as much as 35% this year...

Also, you seem to think it's just a matter of avoiding brands that restrict parts, as you said here:

"if the though process is " I want a watch that can be cheaply serviced by my favorite neighborhood watchmaker " then one should definitely avoid these brands..."

The problem is the list of brands that will freely sell parts is already very tiny, and getting smaller all the time. It's not just big brands either, and it's not just the Swiss, although they are the primary drivers of this. If you are familiar with the pseudo-American brand Kobold. I've serviced a fair number of these, as they are typically equipped with movements that are easily serviced and right now I can get parts for, like the ETA 2824-2. However one came in with a stripped screw down crown and case tube, so I emailed them about buying new parts. The response is that they have a "blanket policy" against selling spare parts, so the watch would have to be sent to them. Oh and they would want to do a full service on it also, just to replace the crown and case tube.

You also characterized this as people "buying above their pay grade" and wanting cheap repairs, which I think is again completely missing the point.

People don't choose the local watchmaker just because of price, although I'm sure for some that is the driver. Often the repairs I do on Omegas will end up costing more than if they had been sent to Omega - I'm not afraid to charge what my time, skills, and expertise are worth (although some watchmakers are short changing themselves in my view). More than once I have had someone contact me with a vintage Omega, telling me that Omega Canada themselves recommended them to me. They know that I understand what collectors are after for their vintage watches, and they know that when they forward the watch on to Bienne, there will be a "take it or leave it" quote given back to the customer, so they have sent them to me instead.

I am not a faceless corporation that will have 7 or 8 people touching your watch during service (only one of those being an actual watchmaker). When someone communicates with my business, it's just me, the same guy that will be doing absolutely everything on your watch. The buck stops here, at my bench. Some people value that personal connection and level of trust. I can honestly say that several people I've serviced multiple watches for (some local to me, some not) I consider real friends.

All this might be trivial to you, and if it is again that's your choice, but please don't assume everyone sees this the way you do.

Cheers, Al

I get your point Al, and I can see how it may seem to you like I'm trivializing the issue, but I am not really, I am just opening the field to other points of view...even though I readily admit some of the points I rise are not particularly those that I follow or believe in, but I acknowledge them. It's just something I've always done...flipping the omelette to study both sides

Nor do I think, or say, expect or even infer that everyone sees things the way I do...or the way you do for that matter. Again as I said this is more of a theoretical dialectic exercise for me and therein lyes the problem, and this is where you're completely right, because I am just using this as discussion points and having some fun flipping points of view around I fail to see how personal and dear the issue is to others, and as such I probably come off as flippant.

See, if you can the broader point I am trying to make despite what one or two remarks may trigger. All I'm saying is that I understand the motivation for the big houses to seek this course, and that to a great majority of buyers (to collectors or hobbyists) they will accept and in some cases even like the exclusivity attached to the product. And that the issue to me is the broader implications on your trade and yes, how it affects the consumer (as I stated I 100% agree on the frustration described on the article about having to ship a watch for a minor bracelet adjustment), But the point I started with is to consider WHY they would take such steps...not so much how they affect us. as painful as it may be the solution is on understanding the motivation not the effects, because if you target the motivation you take care of the whole problem.

But, once again I'm loosing my own point on rhetoric. I apologize if i have seemed insensitive to the issues described, I am not, I just have a certain way to approach problems that is different from yours. It would be too much to ask to read through my posts again with an open mind because I'm long winded and write too much, but I am not trivializing the issue and those quotes you place are much more meaningful in context.

Thank you,

Sergio.

Watch collecting is not about watches, really, but about people. I like, and have a relationship with all the watchmakers who assist me in this hobby. When I am forced to send my watch to some faceless corporate monster repair center, because they have tied the hands of the independents, then I am out, for good. It's that simple.

Perhaps your comment was retained in the bowels of the interweb and regurgitated involuntarily and at random as a reminder that nothing we ever write is ever forgotten by the God of the Forums. 😵‍💫🤪

I think it's more than just raising the price on parts. Since we are talking about parts for vintage watches, the marginal costs to produce brand specific parts will be very high to begin with.

I'm not sure what kind of parts you are talking about. For example, mainsprings are a lot like tires on a car, they are generally not made by the watch company, they are sold by standard sizes and strengths and replacing one with an aftermarket part probably isn't going to hurt collectibility. So these are usually available from suppliers of non-branded parts at a competitive price, due to moderate demand and a moderate supply.

On the other hand, dials are generally unique to each model and collectors will ding you heavily for having a non-original or redialled part. These are a lot harder to find. Small demand and near zero supply will result in a very high price.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

Well my anger from 2015 seems quaint now. If I could go back to the days when Omega was "only" increasing prices by 35% Recent increases of 250% to 300% on many parts overnight make 35% look like an absolute bargain now...

Seems Omega has a plan that they are executing. Cut off the third party suppliers, let the supply in the wild dry up, and really screw people over by doubling or tripling the prices for parts. But don't worry folks, they will take care of you...yeah right...

I've been following Nick Hacko's journey for a number of years and to see the direction that he's heading in is rather amazing IMO.

https://www.nicholashacko.com.au/

https://www.instagram.com/nicholashackowatch/

FIFY

I follow Nick myself and get his newsletter daily, won't pay the $99 for he's premium subscription.

Noticed he is just cloning a Unitas. Be interesting if this is all he is going to do or design he's own.

I was in on one of he's first ever watches but too many changes as it went from number 3 of 10 to 75 to 150 in the space of a month. Then I was working remote in Northern WA without much service and said I could pay in a day or so to he's secretary and next minute I got a (rant type) email from Nick on costs of running a business with a ultimatum pay by close of buisness or miss out. ( was a bit let down when I heard the name of the watch also )

He has burnt some bridges over the years with a lot of people in and out of the industry due to his style.
This has also given me a laugh at times.

But good on him for having a go.

He is a member here still but haven't seen him post for years.

I like the idea on that, until recently when he hired one of my "private" watchmaker to work in his atelier Gone the times when my guy can service my time only watches for me only in a couple of days 🤔

You must be feeling very generous today Andy...😉

I'm all for people manufacturing their own watch movements, but the reality is until he can make the balance spring, he will still be captive to a parts policy of some brand or manufacturer. Nivarox-FAR make 90% of the balance spring and balances (plus escape wheel and pallet forks) for the Swiss watch industry. The reason for this is simple - it's very difficult to do, and most companies (even larger ones) don't have the technical and financial resources to make their own. Some are doing it, but it is a long and very expensive road.

Although I appreciate the effort involved (trust me I do) yet another 6497/6498 clone movement coming on the market doesn't excite me all that much. There are already copies made in China, and one made in the US that I know of. Although I can see some who value it being made locally result in some sales, and those who want to thumb their noses at the Swiss will generate some sales, in the end I'm not sure how desirable this will be unless it's competitively priced, and the real thing is difficult to beat in that way.

As for making his own movement, designing a watch movement is a very different task than copying one. I have no idea if they would have the engineering background to do this and produce a reliable movement.

I would be interested to know if Nick will be selling parts for these watches, or will he be taking the same route that the companies he rants against do? As a consumer will I actually be better off with this movement in terms of serviceability than I am with an ETA 6497/6498 where parts are readily available on the open market?

Will be interesting to see how all this pans out as things progress.

Cheers, Al

On the fight for the right to repair, someone sent this link out to a watchmaker mailing list I'm on today...


Not exactly the same situation as in the watch world, but similar. In the end it's always the consumer that loses when these big companies can do whatever they like.