Learn How To Fish

ConElPueblo

I have had a few newer members asking me for advice on how to spot a good vintage watch and what they should be on guard for. I've decided to post a little primer on how to assess vintage watches (primarily Omegas, though the principles could just as well apply to other marques). I hope this will come in handy for especially newer members, who could need some assistance in the chase of their dream watch.


There is, at any given time, a huge amount of vintage Omegas for sale. A very, very limited number of them are outright fakes, more often it's the condition of the (genuine) parts that makes the difference between an attractive purchase and an unattractive one. So how do you determine if a watch is in good condition? Have a look at the following parts:


1. Case: This should be in a condition where the original facets are still clearly visible. The original brushing on any brushed parts should still be visible too. Places where this is very visible: Bezel, lug chamfers, case back medallion (if any).

Consider these two Constellations:

The first one has razor-sharp edges on the lugs and the bezel is perfect too. On the other subject, the lugs have lost definition and the bezel has been rounded by polishing. This greatly reduces the overall impact of the design and should be taken into consideration, were you to consider a purchase. Note that most old watches have been polished at some point, so while having an unpolished specimen is great, one that has been polished could just as well be a well-maintained, old watch.


Here is an example of how correct brushing can affect the look of a watch:

This is actually a before-and-after photo of one of the members' Seamaster 168.022, which had been incorrectly brushed at some point. Look into how the polished and brushed parts of the watch you are looking for are supposed to look like and this will help you uncover no little amount of attempts to cover up bodge-jobs.


2. Dial. This is the focal point of any watch, and should have your full attention.

2.1. Redials... This is pretty much a no-no for a collector, even though there are a few cases where tolerances are higher. In general, redials are rather common and a lot of them were done more or less on a routinely basis during the early days of your watch.

A redial can be partial, and for instance be the addition of some text or the restoration of a part of a dial. Alternatively, it could be complete and consist of either having the dial plate cleared completely and then repainted (with varying degrees of success) or consist of getting a completely new dial put in the watch. The latter can be impossible to confirm and if done with the correct dial generally doesn't detract from the overall look or value. The former, the reprinted dial, is rather common. Unscrupulous vendors will try to talk around it by claiming that the dial is "original" - as in "the same bit of metal", but that's bollocks. And they know it.


Here are two Omega Seamaster Calendars for your enjoyment:

Notice how fine the text on the first dial is and how it... isn't on the second one? That's because the second one is a cruddy redial. Knowing how the font looks like on the reference you are researching will help you quite a lot, especially on Seamasters. Where can you find this info? On Omegaforums, naturally. Do a search and spend some time smarting up. Other tells on the second example are the minute marks that are of varying thickness and length and the light green lume plots. The original radium lume would have been washed off when the dial was cleaned. A final - and really rather obvious - tip: If it's an old watch, there is little chance that the dial will look as virgin white as the lower one. The light, rather even spotting "suffered" by the top one is typical of this particular reference and a good sign of authenticity. Get to know how your targetted watch usually patinates and it will help you in your assesment.

Dial patina will be the focus of the next post before I'll move onto other parts of the watch.

Part 2: Dial Patina.
Part 3: Luminous markers and hands.
Part X: Fishing on eBay.

Spruce

Welcome to the forum.
I think that you need to start a new thread - go into forums, click on 'Vintage Omega watches …..’, choose the wording of a new heading, and post photos and questions.

ConElPueblo

2.1. You may love patina, but for a lot of people it is still damage/decay so unless it's a special case, a patinated dial will lower the value of a given watch. As this subject is very, eh, subjective and a case of what one finds attractive take these points as mere guidelines.

Patina should be even on a dial. No matter if it's light spotting or the orangey-brown film of tobacco smoke residue from a long period of exposure to that particular element, you do not want random blotches on the dial, but instead an even spread. If the dial damage in question is pronounced at 3 o’clock on the dial there’s a good chance that the cause of the damage is a leakage around the crown, letting in moisture to the case.


Two cases of heavy dial patina, probably from tobacco smoke exposure*. Note that the bottom one is next to a very similarly dialled Seamaster that's also patinated, in this case more light and mostly in the middle of the dial:

(yes, they both were the same light colour to begin with!)

As "patina" could just as well be called "damage", this raises another issue - how about the movement? If you find a heavily patinated watch to your liking, you must inspect the movement. Chances are that whatever caused the damage on the dial side has affected the movement too. Funnily enough, the word “patina” is rarely used on damage below deck...


In the case of black dials, there are several ways for these to age. Have a look in the "Vintage Black Dials Only!" thread, where I have found some of the following examples:


Black fading to grey:

Link

Link

In both cases the black colour is slowly losing its lustre and turning slightly grey. The text changes too and will, typically end up like the "Seamaster" text on the upper model and be hard to read.

Just like this:

Link

A pretty common variety of patina on a black dial is the "gold speck" dial, or the "starry night", where a number of golden stars dot the dial:

Link

This is due to the way the dial is produced: a layer of black paint is added to the brass dial, letting the brass appear where there is text. Eventually, the paint starts to flake and the brass peeks through. Simple.


Probably the most widely liked type of patination of a dial are of the "chocolate" or "tropical" variety. It is my understanding that to begin with, the "tropic" moniker would only be used on a black dial turned lighter brown, but now I seem to see it all over the place. Oh well. As mentioned, patina is a subjective thing and you'll have to make up your own mind whether or not you like it, and if you like it enough to pay a premium over a ordinary specimen. Most brown dials are due to paint defects and the effect of UV and/or moisture ingress.

Link

Link

Quite a few blue dials - often those with a metallic finish - have also been known to change appearances. Here's a member's Omega Seamaster 176.007, which was a striking electric blue when it was new:

Link

The reason why I've focussed so much on black dials is that when these 50's and 60's watches were new, black dials weren't in vogue for a number of reasons. Black dial Constellations, apparently, were even a special order item. This means that there are many fewer of them - and due to the popularity of today, redialers will often paint their creations black! So if you are assessing a piece online and the black dial looks too good to be true (most have deterioated to some extent), then it most likely is. Tread very carefully.


*EDIT: I have now, some time after writing this post, come to the conclusion that correlating this particular type of dial aging with tobacco smoke ingress is probably false. It seems to be more likely to be a manufacturing defect in the lacquer, seeing that it often occurs in the same references and isn't spread evenly across several different refs.

hyperhound71

Great info, thx
Being fairly new to the vintage watch world I’ve wondered if there was a “points” system to help evaluate condition and value.
For example, in the classic car world we have concours judging. For those not familiar, cars are judged on a 100 point scale where a car starts with 100 points and deductions are made based upon condition and originality. This got me thinking about watches, and which things have more “value” than others. For example are replacement hands more of a detractor than a replacement inner bezel? This stuff has been on my mind lately as I search for a Seamaster 176.007. There aren’t any NOS examples out there and, even if there were, they would be way out of my price range. So, what’s left is a mish-mash of less than perfect bezels, hands, lume, crystal and bracelets.
Sorry for the rambling…..very helpful OP

ConElPueblo

2.1. You may love patina, but for a lot of people it is still damage/decay so unless it's a special case, a patinated dial will lower the value of a given watch. As this subject is very, eh, subjective and a case of what one finds attractive take these points as mere guidelines.

Patina should be even on a dial. No matter if it's light spotting or the orangey-brown film of tobacco smoke residue from a long period of exposure to that particular element, you do not want random blotches on the dial, but instead an even spread. If the dial damage in question is pronounced at 3 o’clock on the dial there’s a good chance that the cause of the damage is a leakage around the crown, letting in moisture to the case.


Two cases of heavy dial patina, probably from tobacco smoke exposure*. Note that the bottom one is next to a very similarly dialled Seamaster that's also patinated, in this case more light and mostly in the middle of the dial:

(yes, they both were the same light colour to begin with!)

As "patina" could just as well be called "damage", this raises another issue - how about the movement? If you find a heavily patinated watch to your liking, you must inspect the movement. Chances are that whatever caused the damage on the dial side has affected the movement too. Funnily enough, the word “patina” is rarely used on damage below deck...


In the case of black dials, there are several ways for these to age. Have a look in the "Vintage Black Dials Only!" thread, where I have found some of the following examples:


Black fading to grey:

Link

Link

In both cases the black colour is slowly losing its lustre and turning slightly grey. The text changes too and will, typically end up like the "Seamaster" text on the upper model and be hard to read.

Just like this:

Link

A pretty common variety of patina on a black dial is the "gold speck" dial, or the "starry night", where a number of golden stars dot the dial:

Link

This is due to the way the dial is produced: a layer of black paint is added to the brass dial, letting the brass appear where there is text. Eventually, the paint starts to flake and the brass peeks through. Simple.


Probably the most widely liked type of patination of a dial are of the "chocolate" or "tropical" variety. It is my understanding that to begin with, the "tropic" moniker would only be used on a black dial turned lighter brown, but now I seem to see it all over the place. Oh well. As mentioned, patina is a subjective thing and you'll have to make up your own mind whether or not you like it, and if you like it enough to pay a premium over a ordinary specimen. Most brown dials are due to paint defects and the effect of UV and/or moisture ingress.

Link

Link

Quite a few blue dials - often those with a metallic finish - have also been known to change appearances. Here's a member's Omega Seamaster 176.007, which was a striking electric blue when it was new:

Link

The reason why I've focussed so much on black dials is that when these 50's and 60's watches were new, black dials weren't in vogue for a number of reasons. Black dial Constellations, apparently, were even a special order item. This means that there are many fewer of them - and due to the popularity of today, redialers will often paint their creations black! So if you are assessing a piece online and the black dial looks too good to be true (most have deterioated to some extent), then it most likely is. Tread very carefully.


*EDIT: I have now, some time after writing this post, come to the conclusion that correlating this particular type of dial aging with tobacco smoke ingress is probably false. It seems to be more likely to be a manufacturing defect in the lacquer, seeing that it often occurs in the same references and isn't spread evenly across several different refs.