Help Me Understand Christie's and Sothebys

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WatchVaultNYC

·Mar 1, 2016

When you think of these names, you would think that only the rarest, highest end watches are sold. But when I peruse their website, I see stuff like old Speedmaster Racing, still in production Speedmasters, etc. etc.

Yes, I see a NASA-issued Speedy (which is really cool), and a '67 Speedy, but the majority are far from rare discontinued models that I can find here, WUS, Chrono24, and Ebay. So what's the deal?

 

U

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ulackfocus

·Mar 1, 2016

Everybody's gotta earn a living.

 

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TNTwatch

·Mar 1, 2016

WatchVaultNYC

I see a NASA-issued Speedy

Can you post a link to this one?

 

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Mouse_at_Large

·Mar 1, 2016

If auction houses get a sniff that money can be made, then they'll do it. It's their raison d'etre. Here's another example - http://www.henrys.de/index.php?lang=en&pc=catalog&spc=list&rt=av&pg=1&tid=48&bg=19.03.16%2013.00 I wonder how many of the 405 lots would appeal to the collectors here.....🙄

 

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WatchVaultNYC

·Mar 1, 2016

Not meaning this thread to bash Christies or Sothebys - if prices are high, what is the incentive to buy from them? Trust?

 

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WatchVaultNYC

·Mar 1, 2016

TNTwatch

Can you post a link to this one?

Sold for $60K

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/important-watches-n09159/lot.140.html

 

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Tuscon2

·Mar 1, 2016

Mouse_at_Large

If auction houses get a sniff that money can be made, then they'll do it. It's their raison d'etre. Here's another example - http://www.henrys.de/index.php?lang=en&pc=catalog&spc=list&rt=av&pg=1&tid=48&bg=19.03.16%2013.00 I wonder how many of the 405 lots would appeal to the collectors here.....🙄

You would think
Eighteen months ago, before I found out about this forum, I approached Christies, London with pictures of 2998-61
Got a polite letter of rejection, explaining that they did not get sell that sort of thing.
They weren't the best pictures but the watch did not look that bad

 

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dsio

·Mar 1, 2016·Ash @ ΩF

I actually do respect Christies and Sothebys... Antiquorum these days is another story entirely.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/antiquorum-another-neptune-seamaster-cloisonne.2576/

Long story short Christies sold a genuine one for a fortune (quarter of a million or so), so a month or two later AQ sold a counterfeit for $20k or so, and proceeded with the auction even after being told by multiple sources it was a knockoff.

By contrast, on a handful of occasions in the past Christies have been tipped off about concerns on an item and they've acted immediately, like a WG Constellation ages ago that was a decent redial but marked as original and pulled the listing before re-evaluating it and updating the listing with a clear description of the dial being refinished.

 

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oddboy

·Mar 1, 2016

Tuscon2

they did not get sell that sort of thing.

Sell it here!

 

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Tuscon2

·Mar 1, 2016

oddboy

Sell it here!

Not enough points

 

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TNTwatch

·Mar 1, 2016

WatchVaultNYC

Sold for $60K

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/important-watches-n09159/lot.140.html

Thanks. Strange that NASA didn't know about it to claw it back like the one six months later: https://omegaforums.net/threads/an-...-the-bonhams-auction.18752/page-3#post-210083.

 

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TLIGuy

·Mar 2, 2016

TNTwatch

Thanks. Strange that NASA didn't know about it to claw it back like the one six months later: https://omegaforums.net/threads/an-...-the-bonhams-auction.18752/page-3#post-210083.

NASA had no reason to get it back. It was no longer theirs. There were a small number of NASA procured Speedmasters that were removed from the government inventory via the GAO in the early 80's. They were purchased but never issued or used. A few were sold to the public via a GAO public auction and a few were gifted to NASA dignitaries. This watch is #87 which was part of that batch released from inventory via the GAO. The last NASA issued Speedmaster was Kerwin's #82.

 

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rfortson

·Mar 2, 2016

WatchVaultNYC

Sold for $60K

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/important-watches-n09159/lot.140.html

How did they get it? That's government property.

Edit - just read TLIguy's excellent explanation. I always wondered if any actually went to a GAO auction.

 

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TLIGuy

·Mar 3, 2016

rfortson

How did they get it? That's government property.

Edit - just read TLIguy's excellent explanation. I always wondered if any actually went to a GAO auction.

@rfortson great to see you over here. Don't think you can just pop in and not share your fantastic Speedmaster and the story of its adventure.

Just a handful went to the GAO auction. In total there were less than 10 that were stricken from inventory.

 

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NT931

·Mar 3, 2016

dsio

I actually do respect Christies and Sothebys... Antiquorum these days is another story entirely.

Absolutely. AQ has done some pretty shonky stuff recently, as this true story from another forum shows.

I've bought from Christie's - service was abysmal, but at least the watch was all OK. For AQ, service was even more abysmal, and there's also a risk of a dud watch especially for vintage.

 

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Ray916MN

·Mar 3, 2016

The high end live auction houses trade on relationships, reputations and trust. They use their networks of professional contacts to find goods to sell and they use their customer database, professional contacts and marketing to find buyers. Their ability to find and get rare goods to market to build buyer interest and traffic and to create bidding competition among and between egotistical wealth, aspiring wealth and collectors is their premium value.

Just as it takes only one buyer to make a sale, it takes only two determined competing buyers to make a premium priced sale. The not particular rare goods in the auction are the consolation prizes for the losers and the aspiring. The idea is to have accessibly priced goods for sale so they can win an auction and not go away empty handed. Trying to sell these goods may also be part of a package deal struck with a seller to get them to put rare desirable goods up for auction.

 

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x3no

·Mar 3, 2016

Tuscon2

Not enough points

Talk to a moderator and if you have eBay references or other outside references they can make an exception. I too would like to see what you have to offer

 

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gatorcpa

·Mar 3, 2016·ΩF InvestiGator

NT931

Absolutely. AQ has done some pretty shonky stuff recently, as this true story from another forum shows

As much as I hate to defend AQ, this is an unfortunate circumstance where there was no way out for them.

The problem is that laws regarding title to property differ from country to country. Some jurisdictions have very limited law when it comes to "good faith" sales of property. As one of the contributors to the thread pointed out, if the watch was legally obtained in another country, AQ would likely have had liability to the consigner under the laws of that country if the watch was not returned to them once the legal questions arose.

The owner (with who I've corresponded with many times) is an attorney himself and a very well-known collector. His only recourse would likely be to sue the consigner in the country of possession as the holder of good title. Shame on AQ for not facilitating the exchange of information between the parties.

I don't know if mere possession of the box and paperwork, or even a purchase receipt from another auction house or retailer would be acceptable under that country's law as proof of good title for a non-registered and portable item like a watch.

This is why having expensive watches covered under a jewelry rider to your homeowner's insurance policy is so important. Unfortunately, what is legally and morally right are sometimes two very different things.
gatorcpa

 

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Gsa

·Mar 3, 2016

Auction houses are just that and they will sell anything and everything if they think there is money to be made, some don't like lower end of the market pieces as they want to maximize there commission, you cant get the bargains any more as most are on line but they are responsible for what they sell in the UK anyway and if its not genuine you should get your money back. I've never liked Christies and Sothebys as I've always felt out of place. The most interesting thing I've seen sell was a Chinese vase the auctioneer struggled to get it going at £50000 but it sold for just short of £3m. The original estimate was £10000.

 

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dx009

·Mar 3, 2016

Many of the people that buy there are rich people... Someone that is very rich won't "waste time" on forums to find out whether a listing on ebay is genuine or not, or ask around about a suspicious dial of a certain watch that was offered to him or her. One of the things rich people lack (usually) is time, patience. 😉

There's also vanity involved. You don't brag about buying a rare 2k$ watch from a guy in albania, but you do brag about buying it from sotheby;s for 5k$ especially since these guys at the auction house know how to sell and market their things. Not to mention that there's a much higher chance of the items being genuine guaranteed, maybe repaired,serviced, maybe some rich famous person owned it beforehand.

There's plenty of things involved.