UG Polerouter Sub for sale @ Hodinkee

Mazoue · Feb 17, 2020

@sdre was completely blameless in my opinion. He invited comment about a particular watch, in the same way as thousands of others have done on this forum. Balanced objective discussion about watches is surely what forums are all about.

Such discussions can sometimes feel that they are focused on the negatives. To some extent, this is human nature and I think it is something that we should all try to avoid. But to a greater extent, I think this is because it is simply more convenient to comment on the one or two aspects that may not be correct rather than list all of the attributes that are exactly as expected.

Diabolik · Feb 17, 2020

One could call it focusing on negatives. It is not. It is expressing a judgement on what one sees and perceives. Nothing more than an opinion. We would not be much of a forum if we saw everything through rose colored lenses. A watch is either correct or it is not. If it is correct, we all praise the state it is in, even it it is a little battered. If it is not, we express our opinions which is only right to challenge. Sometimes, we all have to back track. Nothing wrong with hat as we are all learning. It is important to keep an open mind. However, when something is clearly amiss, is plainly visible and it cannot be excused , it is our duty to point it out and express incredulity at lame excuses that are sometimes used by the experts to justify a misleading assessment !

Woops · Feb 17, 2020

I have watched these five pages unfold with increasing dismay and tried (and now failed) to stay out of it. @sdre posted the watch, there was initially a limited response here so he followed up with another post stating that he was passing due to the bracelet issues he feared in his first post being shared by others outside of this forum. He was then asked by other members to expand upon his reasons for passing on the watch. He and others proceeded to lay out those reasons as requested and subsequently get criticised for doing so? Wow.

There was certainly some unsavoury Hodinkee bashing in the middle of this thread from other members which often happens on OF when Hodinkee get involved with any watch. Nevertheless, in the interests of balance, it is worth reiterating that contributors here also praised the patina on the dial, others felt the watch still represented good value for money, there was nice chat about the bezel variants on this reference etc etc. To say that this watch has been totally written off in this thread is plain wrong.

The conversation in this thread was specifically about the wrong bracelet end links and a strange looking case back on this expensive watch, being offered on perhaps the most famous watch site in the world, neither of which were disclosed in the ad and may have been missed by other collectors. It's really that simple.

Finally, speaking entirely personally, I found the tangent about the existential life cycle of a watch derailed this thread completely and the various lectures about the imperfection of old things slightly patronising. This is the UG sub-forum. The collectors here are perhaps more used than most to seeing patched up watches from this beloved dormant manufacture, living on despite no meaningful live parts network and scant surviving reference material. Indeed, we probably cherish our UG watches even more for this very fact.

Bill Sohne · Feb 17, 2020

Woops
I have watched these five pages unfold with increasing dismay and tried (and now failed) to stay out of it. @sdre posted the watch, there was initially a limited response here so he followed up with another post stating that he was passing due to the bracelet issues he feared in his first post being shared by others outside of this forum. He was then asked by other members to expand upon his reasons for passing on the watch. He and others proceeded to lay out those reasons as requested and subsequently get criticised for doing so? Wow.

There was certainly some unsavoury Hodinkee bashing in the middle of this thread from other members which often happens on OF when Hodinkee get involved with any watch. Nevertheless, in the interests of balance, it is worth reiterating that contributors here also praised the patina on the dial, others felt the watch still represented good value for money, there was nice chat about the bezel variants on this reference etc etc. To say that this watch has been totally written off in this thread is plain wrong.

The conversation in this thread was specifically about the wrong bracelet end links and a strange looking case back on this expensive watch, being offered on perhaps the most famous watch site in the world, neither of which were disclosed in the ad and may have been missed by other collectors. It's really that simple.

Finally, speaking entirely personally, I found the tangent about the existential life cycle of a watch derailed this thread completely and the various lectures about the imperfection of old things slightly patronising. This is the UG sub-forum. The collectors here are perhaps more used than most to seeing patched up watches from this beloved dormant manufacture, living on despite no meaningful live parts network and scant surviving reference material. Indeed, we probably cherish our UG watches even more for this very fact.

hi @Woops

You summed it up well. In my personal opinion what derailed the thread for me..... comments on the intent of a seller had some hidden agenda to mislead and or cover up etc...... It speculation of someone actions and brings no value to a watch discussion.

Talking about the positive and negatives of any timepiece , parts , bracelet .... etc as we are here to learn. Also I commented on basically “non-safe queen” like my dad’s Seiko (examples which we also find in the wild.)

good hunting

bill

Bill Sohne · Feb 17, 2020

Hi @Diabolik

Agreed. We can all offer an opinion on a state of a watch . We can even disagree with experts .

I quickly looked at the watch and comments on the clasp as a US market clasp by JB champion.

When I saw the thread take a direction to focus not on the watch but on the intent of the seller ..... that is not the focus of these forums .

Good hunting

Bill Sohne

Sorry about the multiple quotes ..... just sticky keyboard ...

Diabolik
One could call it focusing on negatives. It is not. It is expressing a judgement on what one sees and perceives. Nothing more than an opinion. We would not be much of a forum if we saw everything through rose colored lenses. A watch is either correct or it is not. If it is correct, we all praise the state it is in, even it it is a little battered. If it is not, we express our opinions which is only right to challenge. Sometimes, we all have to back track. Nothing wrong with hat as we are all learning. It is important to keep an open mind. However, when something is clearly amiss, is plainly visible and it cannot be excused , it is our duty to point it out and express incredulity at lame excuses that are sometimes used by the experts to justify a misleading assessment !

janice&fred · Feb 17, 2020

Diabolik
A watch is either correct or it is not.

Woops
I found the tangent about the existential life cycle of a watch derailed this thread completely and the various lectures about the imperfection of old things slightly patronising.

well when there is a strict "black and white" viewpoint as illustrated in the first quote towards "old things" that lived dynamic lives then some discussion on imperfections and illogical expectations of perfection makes sense.

Syrte · Feb 17, 2020

For my part I’m sorry if my earlier comment seemed to imply one should not ask questions, or that @sdre was wrong to start a discussion.

What I do have issues with is when those discussions indeed cross certain lines— and IMHO they sometimes do even if that was no one’s initial intent.

@Diabolik I agree with the principle you enounce and my rose glasses do not stop me from being capable of healthy skepticism.

However I think it’s everyone’s responsibility to be mindful of consequences of opinions, which may but also may not be correct.

May I also remind you the members of this good and very interesting forum have recently caused the collapse of a sale, by criticising someone’s FS post in total violation of forum rules, which even led if my memory’s correct to casting suspicion on that person’s intent?

Rose glasses or not, and UG expert or not, we can all
make mistakes and therefore should be mindful and cautious about what we say.

redpcar · Feb 17, 2020

I'm just going to flat out ask since there have been some hints: @Syrte or @Bill Sohne , Do you know the owner of this watch?

Syrte · Feb 17, 2020

@redpcar I’ve already replied to this question. I said- I do not know who owns it currently— and I have met for coffee once the person who used to own it.

edit/ add: to be more precise, I gave that information upfront, before you even asked the question.

janice&fred · Feb 17, 2020

IT'S A CONSPIRACY !!! 😁

MJKauz · Feb 17, 2020

I'm a little surprised at how this thread slowly turned into people writing off basically the entirety of HODINKEE's vintage watch selection based on the questions raised here. The two people who run their shop I find to be incredibly knowledgable, much more so than a lot of dealers with much higher turnover. They both come from auction houses and have a lot of combined experience. Sure things may slip through the cracks or you might miss some details but I think they've made an effort to be transparent about what you should be aware of when buying a watch with issues, so why do people think they're intentionally trying to deceive?

Sounds like there were issues with the bracelet that came with the UG when it landed in their lap. It probably should have been noticed or mentioned. But I think there's a little bit of hyperbole going on from there.

As for the prices, I haven't compared every watch, but they had a very nice Ranchero up a little while back, on bracelet. Had I seen it I probably would have bought it right away at their asking price because frankly I never see one that good and on bracelet and I've been looking for quite a while.

JwRosenthal · Feb 17, 2020

MJKauz
Sounds like there were issues with the bracelet that came with the UG when it landed in their lap. It probably should have been noticed or mentioned. But I think there's a little bit of hyperbole going on from there.

This was my only issue here- not with the quality of the watch, it’s history or condition- but the lack of written disclosure on something as important as a factory bracelet that adds significantly to the value of this watch.
Many of us like to make fun of their colorful descriptions- they do get a bit florid. Their pricing tends to be on the high end of the market but they are a reputable dealer and thus the prices are what the market will bear based on their reputation for honest and quality pieces and as social media “influencers”.
Their attention to detail when listing other watches, as opposed to the oversight of the mismatched endlinks on this particular watch, is what made me raise an eyebrow.
Yes, this piece may be out of their area of expertise- but we’re not talking about knowing the different changes hands may have gone through during the run of a particular model- this issue is very apparent upon scrutiny.
I think collectors holding dealers like Hodinkee to a higher standard for transparency and disclosure keeps the market honest. I agree bashing isn’t necessary, but pointing out a misstep like this is. I hope someone on this thread who has a relationship with them has let them know of the oversight so they can have the opportunity to correct it- as of now their description remains unchanged.

MJKauz · Feb 17, 2020

JwRosenthal
This was my only issue here- not with the quality of the watch, it’s history or condition- but the lack of written disclosure on something as important as a factory bracelet that adds significantly to the value of this watch.
...
Their attention to detail when listing other watches, as opposed to the oversight of the mismatched endlinks on this particular watch, is what made me raise an eyebrow.
...
I think collectors holding dealers like Hodinkee to a higher standard for transparency and disclosure keeps the market honest. I agree bashing isn’t necessary, but pointing out a misstep like this is. I hope someone on this thread who has a relationship with them has let them know of the oversight so they can have the opportunity to correct it...

I don't disagree at all that asking questions and pointing out issues is super important. We (for the most part) all love to learn. I guess I just was surprised to the extent which some of this jumped the shark.

I'll reach out this afternoon to some folks I know there just to make them aware of the discussion.

Bill Sohne · Feb 17, 2020

redpcar
I'm just going to flat out ask since there have been some hints: @Syrte or @Bill Sohne , Do you know the owner of this watch?

Hi @redpcar

When I posted about the bracelet I did not know the owner of the watch... As this thread unfolded .... I got a txt from a guy who I have met a few times over the last two years.. He said he owned it at one point in the past ( and it was not last week, he said year or more). Which makes no difference how I responded in any of my posts.

I will say this again... this is a place to discuss , agree, and agree to disagree on watches and timepieces as a main focus and other items...

If there is an issue with a item , it can be called out etc... without issue....

I just dont want to get into a blackhole about the intent of the seller. This is not a place for speculation at that level... and I stepped in when " deception' was mentioned.

Personally I am not a buyer for this watch , it does not interest me. even at 2500$ ( really.... )

Good Hunting

Bill

rahilb · Feb 17, 2020

other dealers make mistakes too, just no one cares to discover them because they are not HODINKEE 😀

the bigger you are the harder you are crucified for your mistakes, because people expect a level of performance consistent with history. better to practice Copenhagen ethics and say nothing, lest you open yourself to criticism of withholding information.

redpcar · Feb 17, 2020

@Bill Sohne OK, full disclosure, there was bourbon involved in the deception declaration. You are correct "deception" is too strong. Intentionally omitted? You know they can see the issue. They intentionally did not address it because it is obvious? The rub is that it is obvious to an educated buyer. Not sure if they think the bracelet ads value. No value would end this whole rant that I apparently have started. Think if correct, it would be a $1K adder? $1.5K? Hodinkee should address this in their listing or put it on a leather strap and sell the bracelet separate.

I personally think that if they can address minor cracks in the minute hand lume (which I couldn't see), differences in lume patina from hands to the dial, and damage (err patina) to the date wheel in their "Nitty Gritty" section, they could mention the crunch function from the end links to the bracelet.

I'm not a buyer for this piece, either. Beautiful watch, though.

To summarize:
1. Changed "deceptive" to "intentionally omitted".
2. Wrong end links.
3. Beautiful watch.

Enough said. Back to drinking.

Bill Sohne · Feb 17, 2020

redpcar
@Bill Sohne OK, full disclosure, there was bourbon involved in the deception declaration. You are correct "deception" is too strong. Intentionally omitted? You know they can see the issue. They intentionally did not address it because it is obvious? The rub is that it is obvious to an educated buyer. Not sure if they think the bracelet ads value. No value would end this whole rant that I apparently have started. Think if correct, it would be a $1K adder? $1.5K? Hodinkee should address this in their listing or put it on a leather strap and sell the bracelet separate.

I personally think that if they can address minor cracks in the minute hand lume (which I couldn't see), differences in lume patina from hands to the dial, and damage (err patina) to the date wheel in their "Nitty Gritty" section, they could mention the crunch function from the end links to the bracelet.

I'm not a buyer for this piece, either. Beautiful watch, though.

To summarize:
1. Changed "deceptive" to "intentionally omitted".
2. Wrong end links.
3. Beautiful watch.

Enough said. Back to drinking.

HI @redpcar

maybe you had a typo....
1. Changed "deceptive" to "intentionally omitted".

to corrected
1. Changed "deceptive" to "unintentionally omitted". ???? Just hard to prove they had intent to "whatever" we all make mistakes. I dont know the sales staff at H, but @MJKauz posted he might know someone who can reply to this....
-------------
2) incorrect ( Swiss UG ) end links on a US market UG bracelet ? ,
3) Beautiful watch.

And I am not a buyer of the watch..... i have an earlier symmetrical cased one .... ( this is not a for sales post either ).

Good Hunting

Bill

MJKauz · Feb 17, 2020

Bill Sohne
HI @redpcar

1. Changed "deceptive" to "unintentionally omitted". ???? Just hard to prove they had intent to "whatever" we all make mistakes. I dont know the sales staff at H, but @MJKauz posted he might know someone who can reply to this....

Just a note. I don't want it to seem as though I am very close to or represent them in any way, nor do I think they'll necessarily respond and don't want anyone to feel like they're promised a response on the forum. Judging by the tone of the conversation on forums sometimes, I can't blame people for wanting to stay out of the back-and-forth.

I just have emailed with or talked to a number of their staff in person at events and their pop-up stores, since I live in NYC. But from my experience they're good people and incredibly knowledgable. I've been busy today so I haven't gotten to email them yet. But if you want to reach out or better understand who the team of two behind their vintage sales is, I'd recommend reading this article. It also may come across less random and less accusatory if someone who knows these watches better just sends a polite and friendly note themselves.

Bill Sohne · Feb 17, 2020

Hi guys
@MJKauz I did not mean to put you on the spot ....
please accept my apology.

I will also reach out .... but I am not sure that this is the right venue for response from them .... ( I really don’t want to moderate that possible thread ).

I would also suggest anyone that is interested in the watch send a email / message to them asking about your concerns with the bracelet , ends , sn marking etc ...

Good hunting

bill

MJKauz · Feb 17, 2020

Bill Sohne
Hi guys
@MJKauz I did not mean to put you on the spot ....
please accept my apology.

I will also reach out .... but I am not sure that this is the right venue for response from them .... ( I really don’t want to moderate that possible thread ).

I would also suggest anyone that is interested in the watch send a email / message to them asking about your concerns with the bracelet , ends , sn marking etc ...

No apology necessary. Just didn't want to seem like I over-promised. Agreed on the venue for discussion. As a journalist sometimes I get directed to people discussing me or my work and if there's anything worth correcting I'll correct it but sometimes you just gotta let people talk and move on. Engaging doesn't always help. And I don't envy moderators on big forums like this haha

I think the questions were totally fair from the start. It's obviously always good to research and do your due diligence. I just hate to see good people get dragged from one experience or example. Take a look back at all the great pieces they've sold. Last two cents from me but Brandon and Saori are pretty easily accessible, nice, and experienced folks so easy enough to reach out with your questions on any piece if you're interested. Happy Hunting indeed, thanks @Bill Sohne.

UG Polerouter Sub for sale @ Hodinkee

Mazoue

Diabolik

Woops

Bill Sohne

Bill Sohne

janice&fred

Syrte

redpcar

Syrte

janice&fred

MJKauz

JwRosenthal

MJKauz

Bill Sohne

rahilb

redpcar

Bill Sohne

MJKauz

Bill Sohne

MJKauz

Similar threads

Help On UG Polerouter Sub Double Crown

Help on UG Polerouter sub

Is it an original UG Polerouter sub dial?

UG Polerouter Sub find (haven't purchased ..... tempted though)

UG Polerouter sub asymmetric case

Help to find Crown and Red Second hand for UG Polerouter Sub