Stolen package - recourse?

Marty McDawg · Aug 30, 2018

Bill Sohne
Hi Al

I cant FORCE my credit card company to do a charge back. You tell them what happened.. they determine if a charge back is a proper thing to do. But There is fault on the seller to get the item to the buyer not to his house or close to his house.

Bill

Having worked on the sales side of things, predominantly in the ski industry, AmEx is notorious for siding with the card holder. If a card holder disputes the charge, AmEx refuses payment before any real research.

We would have families come and spend 10s of thousands of dollars and the call and dispute the charges. We would then have to go to great lengths to prove what was clearly fraud on the card holders before AmEx would authorize the charges.

So you don’t have to “FORCE” the card company. They will just react and then ask questions. AmEx is the worst when it comes to this type of situation. Great for the card holders with legit claims, but there are a few that exploit AmEx’s blind discretion.

All that said, I still think at some point the delivery carriers need to use more discretion in leaving packages. Considering how Financially unstable the USPS is, you’d think they would try to step up and perform better to ensure people continue to choose them for future deliveries.

Just my $.02. Feel free to take for a grain of salt😀

Deafboy · Aug 30, 2018

Marty McDawg
All that said, I still think at some point the delivery carriers need to use more discretion in leaving packages. Considering how Financially unstable the USPS is, you’d think they would try to step up and perform better to ensure people continue to choose them for future deliveries.

Like I mentioned, USPS used to leave a note when nobody could receive a package. In the past year they basically leave packages at the door in my neighborhood.

In this particular case I feel the seller did a reasonable job on the delivery. It would be unfair to him that he takes the loss.

I submitted a police report for theft. Apparently the police department have access to pawn shop recent incoming items.

Marty McDawg · Aug 30, 2018

Deafboy
Like I mentioned, USPS used to leave a note when nobody could receive a package. In the past year they basically leave packages at the door in my neighborhood.

In this particular case I feel the seller did a reasonable job on the delivery. It would be unfair to him that he takes the loss.

I submitted a police report for theft. Apparently the police department have access to pawn shop recent incoming items.

Yeah I agree. The seller did their part. Hopefully since a report was filled, homeowners or renters insurance may help cover. Although hopefully the cops can sort it out and find the watch itself.

I’m wondering if nowadays criminals will use the bay instead of pawnshops. Or perhaps both, depending on the item.

Bill Sohne · Aug 30, 2018

Deafboy
Like I mentioned, USPS used to leave a note when nobody could receive a package. In the past year they basically leave packages at the door in my neighborhood.

In this particular case I feel the seller did a reasonable job on the delivery. It would be unfair to him that he takes the loss.

I submitted a police report for theft. Apparently the police department have access to pawn shop recent incoming items.

Been reading the net on USPS practices....

here is a interesting link...

https://www.quora.com/What-if-Im-not-home-when-USPS-delivers-my-package

So best bet is to make sure to get " Signature Required " service and Insured services.... ( used to be that when you got insured , receiver had to sign for it.). Once again this is USPS domestic service only...

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Bill Sohne · Aug 30, 2018

Hi Guys

I just google "Porch pirates"

Now police are involved putting in high priced items to push up the charges... augh...

Good Hunting

Bill

Bill Sohne · Aug 30, 2018

Ok ....

One more ....

this guy set up a camera and a box of exploding poop.... this is on the hairy edge if what is acceptable on the forum in my opinion.

Archer · Aug 30, 2018

Deafboy
Like I mentioned, USPS used to leave a note when nobody could receive a package. In the past year they basically leave packages at the door in my neighborhood.

In this particular case I feel the seller did a reasonable job on the delivery. It would be unfair to him that he takes the loss.

I submitted a police report for theft. Apparently the police department have access to pawn shop recent incoming items.

I'm not sure how familiar with shipping most people are from a liability standpoint. In my days as a project engineer I bought a lot of machinery and equipment - items worth many multiples of a nice 2915 Speedy that were transported many kms and across borders by transport truck usually.

In North America there are two shipping terms usually used - FOB origin or FOB destination. FOB stands for "Free On Board" and in the case of FOB origin, the cost of transport and all risks associated with it are transferred to the buyer at the seller's origin point. Most machinery that I would buy was sold this way, so I had to get a transport truck to the seller's loading dock, and they would get it on the truck I sent, but their role ended as soon as it was loaded on the truck. Any costs of getting the machinery to me, and the risks if something happened were all on me and my company. In this case the ownership of the machinery also exchanges hands at the seller's docks in most cases, so once it was on the truck, I owned it.

FOB destination means that the cost of transport and all risks associated with it are with the seller, and ownership and risk are transferred to the buyer at the buyer's destination as soon as the item has been removed from the transport. I think this is most likely what eBay would assume, even though technically the buyer is paying for the shipping and the seller is only passing those costs on. But as long as the package gets to the destination, the seller has done their job.

In either case, the seller can't be held responsible for theft from someone's doorstep, and to do so would be unethical and IMO illegal. If the buyer asked for a signature, and the seller failed to add it to the shipping, that's a different story.

I do hope that the police turn up something for you...

Cheers, Al

Bill Sohne · Aug 30, 2018

Hi Al
Thanks for the clarity.... Typically in consumer sales its FOB destination means that the cost of transport and all risks associated with it are with the seller.... even if the cost are passed thru to the buyer via the price or " Free Shipping" etc... Plus we are talking about items of a different physical scale then what you used to deal with.

Plus I tried filing a claim with the PO for bad packing as item was damaged in transit. Local PO did not know what to do.. as i was not the person who sent the item and that is the person who has to file the claim ( I got different answers on that from different people at the Post office and different numbers I called). I know UPS wants the sender to file the claim.

It tough... cheapest and easiest way to get stuff done.... Super pack the item ( buy packing material if needed , dont use diapers !!! spend the extra money on ins and signature required .

Best

bill

Archer · Aug 30, 2018

Bill Sohne
Thanks for the clarity.... Typically in consumer sales its FOB destination means that the cost of transport and all risks associated with it are with the seller.... even if the cost are passed thru to the buyer via the price or " Free Shipping" etc...

Exactly - and the ownership and risks transfer to the buyer once removed from transport - in this case when USPS dropped the package at the buyer's door.

Bill Sohne · Aug 30, 2018

Archer
Exactly - and the ownership and risks transfer to the buyer once removed from transport - in this case when USPS dropped the package at the buyer's door.

Hi Al
Your not getting it... This was not a B2B transaction... it either a B2C or C2C ( consumer to consumer) transaction.

I think if you asked both the seller and buyer they would have thought the service that the carrier would have delivered to a person not a doorstep.

and the machinery you got over the years If the truck just dropped it off at the curb unattended it might be ok as It might be very large or ex termly heavy.... aka not easy to move with out a pallet jack or many people...

Now we are talking about something extremely small and very valuable. In my opinion its different.

For the OP situation to happen... few things " Failed"

1) It could have been prevented by asking for signature required. but barring that in a C2C transaction....
or
2) Postal carrier at their discretion could have left a notice if they felt it was unsafe to leave instead of leaving it unattended

FYI Post office is trying to sell new services like package pick up box when you get a box that cant be left they can put it in a locked box accessible 24/7 right out side Po.

It a shame... people suck.

Let me ask you a question.... how do you sent a item? Canada post is good... in 20 years I lost one register piece of mail that came from canada.... no fault from them.... once again on the US PS side.... once thru customs no tracking.

As with most of the lost items... seems JFK is the black hole of loss ( maybe theft...).

Good Hunting

bill

Deafboy · Aug 30, 2018

Archer
Exactly - and the ownership and risks transfer to the buyer once removed from transport - in this case when USPS dropped the package at the buyer's door.

I have a question. Using your example of expensive machinery with FOB destination, what if the shipper simply leaves it outside in the parking lot at night during a rainstorm? Technically it was delivered, no? Shouldn't the shipper be liable that the item is received to the addressee in good order?

Dan S · Aug 30, 2018

Bill Sohne
... Super pack the item ( buy packing material if needed , dont use diapers !!!

What about baby socks? I know someone who has a bunch of extras.

Bill Sohne · Aug 30, 2018

Dan S
What about baby socks? I know someone who has a bunch of extras.

Hi

I remember getting a watch wrapped in a diaper! it least it was a new diaper!

Archer · Aug 30, 2018

Deafboy
I have a question. Using your example of expensive machinery with FOB destination, what if the shipper simply leaves it outside in the parking lot at night during a rainstorm? Technically it was delivered, no? Shouldn't the shipper be liable that the item is received to the addressee in good order?

Again ownership transfers when the item is removed from transport, which in the case of large machinery would be done by the receiver. If it was left out in the rain, it would be the receiver leaving it out, and the seller has zero responsibility. As the receiver and buyer, it's my responsibility to ensure that once the item is removed from transport, it is properly secured.

Bill Sohne
Hi Al
Your not getting it... This was not a B2B transaction... it either a B2C or C2C ( consumer to consumer) transaction.

Trust me I get it. What sellers and buyers "think" is going to happen is not really relevant, nor are your feelings about how this is somehow "different" because it isn't. When you enter into a transaction on eBay, feelings and how you think things will happen are much less important than the legal contract that is formed. There's a reason eBay is saying there is no recourse, because the legal contract was fulfilled. You can wish it was different all you want, and go down the "shoulda, woulda, coudla" all you want, but that doesn't change the facts here.

The OP knew for the last year that USPS was leaving parcels on doorsteps that didn't have a signature on them, so he knew there was a risk, but for whatever reason didn't ask for a signature...

Bill Sohne
Let me ask you a question.... how do you sent a item?

FedEx/ParcelPro.

Cheers, Al

Bill Sohne · Aug 30, 2018

Hi Al

its not the same when you compare taking delivery of large equipment... I have done the same with taking delivery on Job sites . There is much more communication between shipper and receiver.. So nothing is left out in the rain or unattended...

Your right on the fact the receiver was aware of the USPS habits and did not take the necessary precautions. But i already agreed with you on this when the OP said he was satisfied with the preformance of the seller and USPS.

If it was me... I would have requested signature required. and this would not have happened.

best

bill

gatorcpa · Aug 30, 2018

Dan S
I'm not sure why we are talking about credit cards, since PayPal was probably used. PayPal is often linked to a bank account, and even when it is linked to a credit card, the connection is indirect enough that I'm not sure the cc company will get involved (this is just speculation on my part).

Most credit card companies absolutely will get involved in this type theft, even if PayPal or eBay won’t. @Bill Sohne is 100% correct. Consumer protection laws will generally apply here, not necessarily the UCC, as this is not a B2B transaction (most of the time).

Dan S
But just to mention this for people who may not know. Many credit cards have "purchase protection" that could cover this. Not all cards - it depends on the card and on the bank.

That is correct. Which is why my first call would have been to my credit card company and not to eBay or PayPal, once I realize that a theft has occurred. Call them and they will determine the best course of action based on the facts.

If you are not using a credit card on eBay or PayPal, then shame on you. It’s there to protect you, even if the seller is not at fault. If the seller objects, find another seller.

Another safeguard is to never have valuable items delivered to your home if there is a chance that no one will be there to receive them. Rent a PO box, Mailbox+, UPS, FedEx, etc. I have everything delivered at work, but realize that is not an option for everyone.

I would think at this point all of this is common sense, but... ::facepalm1::

gatorcpa

Archer · Aug 30, 2018

Bill Sohne
its not the same when you compare taking delivery of large equipment... I have done the same with taking delivery on Job sites . There is much more communication between shipper and receiver.. So nothing is left out in the rain or unattended..

Again you are missing the legal contract that is formed. I wasn't suggesting that it would be the same level of contact, but that doesn't mean a buyer can simply ignore the shipping terms, and cry foul when the parcel goes missing from their own doorstep.

eBay often sides with buyers, but not in this case. As far as they are concerned the terms of the contract were fulfilled, and that's because they actually were fulfilled. To suggest anything different is just wrong based on what we know.

Deafboy · Aug 30, 2018

Interesting thread.

In fact I do use a credit card (Chase Sapphire Preferred) for Paypal/eBay. My understanding they do offer theft protection up to $500. There have exceptions (e.g. jewelry, used items, etc) but since I have dollar amount with eBay then they might reimburse. If my appeal with USPS insurance falls through then it would be my next recourse.

The irony in this story is that I was home at the time of delivery.

Bill Sohne · Aug 30, 2018

Archer
Again you are missing the legal contract that is formed. I wasn't suggesting that it would be the same level of contact, but that doesn't mean a buyer can simply ignore the shipping terms, and cry foul when the parcel goes missing from their own doorstep.

eBay often sides with buyers, but not in this case. As far as they are concerned the terms of the contract were fulfilled, and that's because they actually were fulfilled. To suggest anything different is just wrong based on what we know.

Hi Al

Now I am confused... I have not missed anything...

I said I agreed with you after getting the info from the buyer stating he did not request signature and that on top of that , he was fully aware how his local PO need leaving boxes unattended for the past year. The deal was completed..

I also said in the end , if it was me as the buyer I would have had signature requred delivery.

Have a nice day

Bill

Dan S · Aug 30, 2018

Bill Sohne
Hi

I remember getting a watch wrapped in a diaper! it least it was a new diaper!

Sorry @Bill Sohne, this was an obscure joke related to the exploding poop video. 😀

Stolen package - recourse?

Marty McDawg

Deafboy

Marty McDawg

Bill Sohne

Bill Sohne

Bill Sohne

Archer

Bill Sohne

Archer

Bill Sohne

Deafboy

Dan S

Bill Sohne

Archer

Bill Sohne

gatorcpa

Archer

Deafboy

Bill Sohne

Dan S

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