Opening a can of worms

JwRosenthal · Oct 26, 2020

timoss
Assuming a watch is currently being properly cared for, does the mold get arrested and remain more less as is as it ages, or does the mold continue to grow at a substantial rate? Should one expect a watch that has just a bit of mold to have a lot more 5 or 10 years down the road? Is there even an answer to this?

The ones I have that show slight spotting on the lume are dry as a bone now and the ingress was long ago- I haven't seen any of those change. I would wager that in the more severe cases we see, those watches got damp (fogged crystal), and the owners just continued to wear them as they still ran and the fog "went away"...but that moisture was still in there.
If you ever get fogging inside a crystal- drop that thing in a ziplock baggie of rice and get it to a watchmaker stat- they need to get it open and dry it out.

sdre · Oct 26, 2020

I would imagine having a flowchart of your thought process.

Personally, this is how I see it :

1) weigh out how much do you value / paid for the watch VS relume/recut (and it loses its originality hence value might drop)

2) If you value its originality in order to retain value (say if you need to sell the watch in order to pay for another mortgage or savings or emergency medical fees etc), then i would leave it as it is.

3) if its a cheap 450 USD no name skindiver/ which could use a sympathetic relume; then i will go ahead to relume; and wear the heck outa it.

I value originality in Vintage Rolex / Vintage Omegas in the tens of thousands; so i wont even think of reluming.

However I have done the whole relume shenanigans on my SKX007 to make it look vintage and I thought its a pretty cool look.

P.S one reason why I'm out of the VR/Expensive vintage brands game; is because artisans are able to relume these watches to have the same amount of tritium and even-ness; even the exposure to uv light can be adjusted by artisans so that the tritium dies off evenly in 1-2 seconds.....

Concer · Oct 27, 2020

JwRosenthal
When moisture gets into a watch- even just from light sweat wicking in through a compromised back or crown seal, the lume acts like a sponge and absorbed it first. This will usually turn the lume dark moldy green to black. Sometimes is subtle with speckles on the surface of the lume (this one had a bad crown seal at some point)

Depending on how much moisture got in it can go almost complete black. To me- this lume is not aged or patina'd, but damaged.
(This Pic from a web grab of an older thread here)

When I see lume this dark, it's a canary in the colemine to me- this watch got damp inside at some point- I tend to just avoid them.

Thanks! That was new to me. Nice to know! 😀

Winston_Smith · Oct 28, 2020

This is a great thread, so I'd like to start off by raising hat to the OP and all responders! I had similar questions/hesitations about reluming so I won't drown the forum with another thread about it 😀

Personally, considering that all hands still contain tritium in the Speedy of OP (and that indexes are still quite ok), my preference would be to leave it as-is. Just like @janice&fred et al., I'd rather the original state of the lumes. I personally don't use the vintage watches on daily basis and don't expect them to keep perfect time or glow in the dark to check out the time in the night (man, I merely look at my watch to check the time!!). So if the lumes are still intact despite losing some glow etc, I'd keep a 60 yr old vintage with its original, cancerogenous, radioactive Tritium no matter what.

With all above being said, I've also been thinking a lot about the pros and cons of reluming lately. As you might know, I've recently got myself my first Omega (an Auto SMDV) for which I'd like to thank all forumers once again for all the knowledge & expertise I gained through OF!

My watch also has some original Tritium content on the hands but unfortunately, the lume on the minute hand is entirely gone whereas the hour hand still stands. The watch is currently getting a full service and reluming is also covered in the charge. So I was considering getting both hands relumed (since, obviously, getting only the minute hand relumed would be pointless). The watchmaker didn't want to touch the dial so there will be no reluming on index pointers etc.

I wonder if you guys would also have different opinions about reluming when the watch hands/dial partially loses the lume/tritium?

JwRosenthal · Oct 28, 2020

Winston_Smith
This is a great thread, so I'd like to start off by raising hat to the OP and all responders! I had similar questions/hesitations about reluming so I won't drown the forum with another thread about it 😀

Personally, considering that all hands still contain tritium in the Speedy of OP (and that indexes are still quite ok), my preference would be to leave it as-is. Just like @janice&fred et al., I'd rather the original state of the lumes. I personally don't use the vintage watches on daily basis and don't expect them to keep perfect time or glow in the dark to check out the time in the night (man, I merely look at my watch to check the time!!). So if the lumes are still intact despite losing some glow etc, I'd keep a 60 yr old vintage with its original, cancerogenous, radioactive Tritium no matter what.

With all above being said, I've also been thinking a lot about the pros and cons of reluming lately. As you might know, I've recently got myself my first Omega (an Auto SMDV) for which I'd like to thank all forumers once again for all the knowledge & expertise I gained through OF!

My watch also has some original Tritium content on the hands but unfortunately, the lume on the minute hand is entirely gone whereas the hour hand still stands. The watch is currently getting a full service and reluming is also covered in the charge. So I was considering getting both hands relumed (since, obviously, getting only the minute hand relumed would be pointless). The watchmaker didn't want to touch the dial so there will be no reluming on index pointers etc.

I wonder if you guys would also have different opinions about reluming when the watch hands/dial partially loses the lume/tritium?

If your watchmaker can color match the hands then IMO it's a no brainer. Missing lume is-missing- it's gone. It can make a nice watch look like total shit.

A sympathetic hand relume can make all the difference.

sonicosa · Oct 28, 2020

JwRosenthal
If your watchmaker can color match the hands then IMO it's a no brainer. Missing lume is-missing- it's gone. It can make a nice watch look like total shit.

A sympathetic hand relume can make all the difference.

Can I ask where you had that done?

JwRosenthal · Oct 28, 2020

sonicosa
Can I ask where you had that done?

A friend of mine (not a watchmaker) does this kind of work for me. He is a hobbiest, like any of us- he just has mad skills.

Winston_Smith · Oct 28, 2020

JwRosenthal
If your watchmaker can color match the hands then IMO it's a no brainer. Missing lume is-missing- it's gone. It can make a nice watch look like total shit.

A sympathetic hand relume can make all the difference.

Amazing job out there! I'm wondering though, can vintage Tritium (faded yellow?) colour be matched with any superluminova? That would require an excellent reluming skills which would be quite rare IMHO. I've seen numerous reluming videos on YouTube and I've observed that watchmakers often completely clean all hands regardless of how much lume left on hands, for the sake of matching colours.

sonicosa · Oct 28, 2020

JwRosenthal
A friend of mine (not a watchmaker) does this kind of work for me. He is a hobbiest, like any of us- he just has mad skills.

Ahh, yes. I believe I’ve heard mention of this friend’s mad skills, (and perhaps a mishap with a bezel if I recall correctly) in your posts before. Thanks!

JwRosenthal · Oct 28, 2020

Winston_Smith
Amazing job out there! I'm wondering though, can vintage Tritium (faded yellow?) colour be matched with any superluminova? That would require an excellent reluming skills which would be quite rare IMHO. I've seen numerous reluming videos on YouTube and I've observed that watchmakers often completely clean all hands regardless of how much lume left on hands, for the sake of matching colours.

SLN can be blended with tritium/radium to patch. Whomever is doing the work needs to have very good color matching skills and know what the dry-down will look like. They also need to have a wide palette of colors to get it right- and it's not always a perfect match, but ca get damn close. Obviously they won't glow the same way under UV (which is good- the intent is not to deceive), but in daylight it looks fine.
This one came with a chunk of radium lume missing but the center

My friend blended the colors to get it right and filled the hole, then stabilized the back of the hand with the same mixture to keep the rest from collapsing

you can see a slight difference at the patch, but it's stable now and I don't have to worry about it falling apart.

This guy came with a lot of lume dust floating around inside the crystal. When my watchmaker took the hands off for service, the lume on the hour hand litterally disintegrated (a hazard with old lume no matter how careful the watchmaker is).
My friend relumed the hour hand to match the minute hand, including the darkening around the edges.

JwRosenthal · Oct 28, 2020

sonicosa
Ahh, yes. I believe I’ve heard mention of this friend’s mad skills, (and perhaps a mishap with a bezel if I recall correctly) in your posts before. Thanks!

Yup- him. And luckily the bezel was his own. Anytime you (or a watchmaker) get into taking watches apart- the risks are there- you just have to go in expecting the worst and hoping for the best- particularly with 40+ year old lume or prying acrylic bezel inserts out of bezels and pressing them back in.

WYO_Watch · Oct 28, 2020

@Barking mad

Personally I wouldn’t relume your Ed. It’s complete and looks good in its current state. Hypocritically, I relumed my Ed (I call him Fred because of the service bits).

In my case, I had a super luminova dial and brand new hands to contend with. A sympathetic aging fits the watch’s beat up bezel and has made it very enjoyable to wear. I went a little less crazy than Omega on the trilogy lume jobs 😉

JwRosenthal · Oct 28, 2020

I just want to note- in the watches I have shown- there was nothing to lose. My hobbiest friend is comfortable doing hands and raised dial indices that have a trough for the lume- but he won't do free pips or large dots (like on a Rolex matte dial or a Speedy)- that work is for an expert and he knows his limitations. Although his work is good, it's not perfect. Work as critical as reluming a dial should be left to a professional.

maxbelg · Oct 28, 2020

My thoughts on the subject are:

-obviously original, good looking lume is always preferrable.
-if the original lume is gone or has changed colour for the worse, the overall effect might still be very attractive and in that case is preferrable to re-luming.
-If it is not attractive anymore, a good re-lume job can improve things considerably.

This brings us to the subjectivity: When will a watch be more attractive after re-luming. This is obviously subjective and everybody needs to decide for themselves. Having said that a watch only has original lume or remains of original lume once. Usually original is worth more financially as the new buyer can make the choice to re-lume or not.

Winston_Smith · Oct 28, 2020

Amazing read guys 📖

JwRosenthal
My friend blended the colors to get it right and filled the hole, then stabilized the back of the hand with the same mixture to keep the rest from collapsing

you can see a slight difference at the patch, but it's stable now and I don't have to worry about it falling apart

Man, this is top-notch! I know your friend is a hobbiest but I've never met a watchmaker who'd agree to partially repair a missing lume. Obviously, they have some cost concerns regarding the time and money they'd spend for the superluminova material (probably at least two of them to get the right colour mixture!), experimenting right colours and applying a very slight touch of lume on hands. Requires both high level of patience and skills!

I can definitely distinguish two different tones of lumes but considering that this is a large image of what's normally a very tiny piece, I'm sure the new lume drops do perfect job filling dot-size spaces which would look worse in their absence. All in all, 👍👍👍

JwRosenthal · Oct 28, 2020

Winston_Smith
Amazing read guys 📖

Man, this is top-notch! I know your friend is a hobbiest but I've never met a watchmaker who'd agree to partially repair a missing lume. Obviously, they have some cost concerns regarding the time and money they'd spend for the superluminova material (probably at least two of them to get the right colour mixture!), experimenting right colours and applying a very slight touch of lume on hands. Requires both high level of patience and skills!

I can definitely distinguish two different tones of lumes but considering that this is a large image of what's normally a very tiny piece, I'm sure the new lume drops do perfect job filling dot-size spaces which would look worse in their absence. All in all, 👍👍👍

You don't even notice it when looking at it 6" away. He offered to do the entire hand but I was hoping to see if he could do the patch and the radium on the hands and dial were excellent otherwise (that kind of chip can happen when removing and reinstalling old lumed hands during a service- it's a pressure point).
It was his first attempt- and he's gotten better since then. I use him for my restoration work and he uses me as a proving ground to expand his skills. He takes his time, he experiments on junk parts and then applies the skills it to my watches. A professional like James Hyman (who I have never used but have seen his work here) would be far more confident and probably be able to blend it perfectly- this is what he does so he has the tool kit.
As a note- my friend does electronics repairs so is used to working on very small items like PCB's and soldering 33g wire. He used to build miniature models and do elaborate paint work on them- so his skills were a natural fit for this kind of work. I on the other hand can't work this small (large mechanical things are my wheelhouse), so I wouldn't even attempt it.

Redwes25 · Oct 28, 2020

One of my watches was relumed by the previous owner which had missing lume on the hands and parts of the dial and the new lume matches beutifully throughout. The lume is also fast fade lume and you honestly wouldn't know it isn't all original unless the previous owner told me. There is no doubt this improved the value of the watch. My gut feeling is each watch is in a different state and a relume job if done properly improves the value of the watch.

Archer · Oct 28, 2020

Winston_Smith
Man, this is top-notch! I know your friend is a hobbiest but I've never met a watchmaker who'd agree to partially repair a missing lume.

Reluming falls mostly into "not watchmaking" and it's not something that I've ever seen or heard of being taught in watchmaking school. In fact many watchmaking curriculums/curricula don't address many other basic tasks, like casing work and refinishing, let alone something like reluming hands and dials.

So this tends to be very much a self taught type of skill, and you certainly don't need watchmaking skills to do it. Some watchmakers refuse it on principle that it's not watchmaking - one I know refers to it as "cake decorating". 😀

For me, it's not something I would get asked to do often enough to make perfecting that specific skill worth my time, so other than some very small jobs here and there, I leave it up to people who do it day in and day out. Those are the people who will do the best job IMO, and most of them are not watchmakers...

Cheers, Al

M'Bob · Oct 28, 2020

Leave or re-lume?

WYO_Watch · Oct 28, 2020

M'Bob
Leave or re-lume?

Leave - just like the OP, the lume is consistent and complete. Sure it’s a bit “moldy” - but it’s really cool!

Opening a can of worms

JwRosenthal

sdre

Concer

Winston_Smith

JwRosenthal

sonicosa

JwRosenthal

Winston_Smith

sonicosa

JwRosenthal

JwRosenthal

WYO_Watch

JwRosenthal

maxbelg

Winston_Smith

JwRosenthal

Redwes25

Archer

M'Bob

WYO_Watch

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