Interesting upcoming auction

@oinkitt ...Forse ricordi un altro "sommatore"... Questo specifico 13zn-12 fu venduto in asta su e-bay nei primi mesi del 2010 per 37.877 $ (ho ancora alcune vecchie foto utilizzate in quell' asta)...

Surely there couldn't be 2 watches with that dial and non matching hands.

That is the image I have for the listing I posted. Perhaps I mixed them up over the years.

Minute hand is too long. Dial is another one of these pristine, golden variants that I am highly suspicious of. See prior post here: https://omegaforums.net/threads/13z...es-and-information.32929/page-20#post-1063997

Actually, I think the hands are wrong entirely. I have seen many versions of this exact dial style, and they all have similar blue "leaf style" hands.

Dial looks spot on and correct to me.

Here is simular dial with stick hands.

Below are three examples of this dial (the one above is included). The first potentially suspicious point is the condition, all are essentially flawless. Secondly, the dials happen to be found in the most desirable case references, which likely span a number of years. Lastly, these three watches can be linked to a couple of dealers. This final point is not necessarily a problem but I am mentioning for completeness.

That’s a beauty! This dial may be the most common layout from that era as I have seen many many like this style - base 1000 in blue with these exact hour numerals with open 6. Private Eyes has sold multiple like this as well.

Every single one had hands like this or leaf style.

And in terms of the case - not one in gold had pump pushers (only a few that have surfaced in steel had pump pushers). I would love to see the back of the caseback and the movement too. Given the case seems unpolished and oxidized, I would imagine the movement would have to be in perfect condition nearly

Strange why it still has the wrong hands. I think it`s possible to find the correct lenght leaf hands with not to much effort?

Changing them now would be an admission of error so I don't think it will happen.

As a postscript to my remarks above, I am compelled to mention that the dial of the watch on the right (ref. 5415?) has a slightly different tachy scale. Of course, the tre tacche on the left also differs as it has "Anti-magnetique" in a highly atypical font.

Yes it is a 5415. And the only one I have seen with tachy scale(no radium)
Exept from the one I have and one more.

To chime in here, this is one of the most common dials I have seen from the era.

My thoughts are

1. They are in great condition with minimal wear. That alone does not and should not arise suspicion if the fonts are all correct, the subdials have the right depth, etc. Remember, the dealers that are selling these specifically look for the ones that have been preserved. Parmigiani, Mimandcroket, these dealers pretty much try to only buy the high quality NOS type pieces to then re-sell. I disagree strongly with @DirtyDozen12 - I do not believe for a second that great condition should arose suspicion, unless consistency is not there... which brings me to point #2 ....

2. Consistency is very important. If the dial is pristine, the caseback should be pristine too - the engraved numbers should be sharp, probably little to no marks at all. The movement should likely also be pristine. They should all match. If the dial is perfect, but somehow the movement shows signs that any moisture got into the watch and thus the movement (and thus the dial), then that is suspicious. But if the dial is pristine, as is the case back and movement and case, then that is the top grade vintage Longines 13zns that exist in the market that are highly desired. We should not question well preserved watches while admiring damaged ones, that strikes me as foolish.

3. Some dials when pristine do arouse suspicion. For example, the sandwich dials are almost never seen in perfect NOS condition. But this dial here is a common one and layout. And this gold colored dial with blue fonts - it is always found on gold cases I believe. I have 3 examples below. The gold on gold look.

4. My issues with the 3 watches that @DirtyDozen12 posted are this
- The first one has the weird Anti Mag font that looks added to the dial. I believe the dial is original and this may have been printed on it afterwards. Foolish but I have seen plenty of bad "Tiffany & Co" stamps added to vintage Pateks too
- The middle watch has the weird hands but the dial to me looks spot on. It is also unusual by having the "Base ... 60 ...1000 ...750" -- whereas nearly all of the "Gold dials with blue fonts" I have seen have the "60 ... Base ... 1000 .... 400...". That said, I do believe the dial is original and spot on, and other 13zns in larger cases with the "Base ... 60 ...1000 ...750" exist.
- The third one is a 5415 which does not have this dial usually, I can find no such examples. There is a chance this dial was taken from another piece and fitted to this 5415. I believe the dial is original and spot on but perhaps put on a 5415 which may have had another dial before. Possible but not for sure.

Back to the original watch then - I believe the hands are wrong, period. The case may not be made for this dial, there is a question there. Dealers have been known to swap dials. But I believe the dial is spot on and correct.

Some pictures of this dial layout and numerals for reference, along with the one @Radiumpassion posted above, and including a Pulsations version of this gold dial and one that is more pink in nature (Pictures 1 and Last from Private Eyes, not sure about the others)

As I have stated many times before, I do not think that great condition, in isolation, is an issue. Are pristine watches from the 1930s and 1940s relatively uncommon? Yes, but they do exist. However, I do think that condition, in conjunction with other inconsistencies, should be considered as a potential point of concern. I find this especially relevant when we are discussing watches with values in excess of 20k euros.

As you have shown, other examples of similar dials in similar condition can be found. Maybe my suspicion stems from the seemingly uncommon pairing of these golden dials with 3T and 5415 cases. It is also difficult to imagine where these dials would have come from if they have been swapped in. Are there stacks of flawless golden dials laying around?

I would love to inspect these dials in person and see the movements and case-backs of the three watches but I doubt this will happen. For now, I remain suspicious but I admit that this is based more on intuition than evidence.

Yes, I also do find it odd to see these dials with 3T and 5415 cases. I believe these golden dials and dials with this layout (with or without tachy) were some of the most common of the era. They are the easiest dials to find, and therefore the easiest ones to find pristine (while a sandwich dial or a snail dial pristine is almost impossible).

I have definitely seen dial swaps done, especially since Longines extract does not mention the dial (as opposed to the Patek or AP extract which does mention the dial born with the watch).

I have seen almost all of the golden dials that are in nice condition be on the less desired cases. Mostly the 34mm fixed bar type cases. Even pristine NOS quality on a 34mm fixed bar gold case will get 15-18k euros maybe. A pristine dial on a 3T steel case, we have seen them get 90k euros! Not a perfect example but you get the idea; so the incentive is there to swap dials. And you only need to find a few - certainly not stacks of them - to swap into 4-5 examples to then sell.

The watch in question is the first and only time I have seen the golden dial in a stepped larger gold case. That combined with the hands issue does make me fearful of the original dial swapped into this stepped case, but that this watch was not born this way. I would need to see the movement and caseback, as you said, to determine further.