Ceramic watches too expensive

korenje · Jan 4, 2017

RegF, you obviously know a little about materials. Zirconium-dioxide is 50 times stronger than stainless steel A.316 (not just 4 times) - for compressive strenth 100 times harder. The difference is though in elasticity and brittleness. The second is measured by dropping a hammer on a sample and tells how many Joules is needed for a sample to break.

But the bigger problem than pure ZrO2 is sintered ZrO2 which could be porous or with impurities or with improper bonding of the material. Actually in sintering process the bonding of powder should evaporate as much as possible, but if some stays in the cheramic it will work as "adhesive" bond wish is basically not wanted. Especially if it's in planar shape.

RegF · Jan 4, 2017

K korenje
RegF is just someone without proper education. - no offense meant.
Blank chip is a chip, not a watch case. And yes I can see at 0:57 that only surfaces are polished or brushed. Obviously after sintering you don't get polished surface. The color is done with plasma burning.
Technological process is basically exactly the same as production of ferrite cores, even the machines and tools are the same.

Here's an old machine without manipulator.

Well, without getting into a pissing match I spent 35 years involved in sales service and training on the use of the smaller versions of these styems for the manufacture of zirconia and feldspathic porcelain parts

A division of one of the companies that I worked with a couple of years ago made the zirconia blanks for IWC. They are machined from a pressed disc in initial runs, once volume is proven, then the the blamks is case-shaped. The infusions of other materials alter the material's flexural and compressive strength and most of our competitors had a range of propietary materials for this to make them different, with a range of applications and claims to go along with it.

The machines that I handled were small scale and were in the range of $150k - $500k and looked a bit like this at the cheap end of the scale

Looks a little different to your ferrite core machine.

I don't have a pic of the factory's big guns that were used for the watch cases, but they were basically a scaled up version of the this, as that was the company's business. They also made their own furnaces and range of infusions. Done right the finished surface came out with no polishing required. Colour is done in varying ways, depending upon what the end customer wants.

This is a bit different to ferrite cores used on cicruit boards or cords, which I will grant you, are another use for ceramic materials.

Again, the volume of ferrite cores used in the world is many orders of magnitude greater than the number of mechanical wrist watches, and the number of luxurt ferrite cores would be nil.

korenje · Jan 4, 2017

This small machine is nowhere near good enough for pressing powder for sintering. Actually this small machine we had in school laboratory where we were sintering really small samples. Like I said to get the least porous result you need at least 100 tons press for watch case. Obviously the higher the pressed model is, more pressing is needed becuse of different density from top or bottom because of wall frictions. That is also regulated a bit with movement of bottom matrice and from bottom pressing as this presses press from both sides.

And you can see that the machine on omega website is basically the same as another from youtube that I've shown.

RegF · Jan 4, 2017

Archer
FIFY...Saying it's taking the same chances is disingenuous at best...

Oh, come on...
I have 60 or so watches in my collection. I've been wearing a watch since I was 10 years old. In the ensuing 45 years I've never smashed a crystal

I think in our previous discussion you mentioned that you didn't actually work on sapphire crystal watches, not sure and I'm not scanning all through the backlog right now...

Hence my asking the audience here - how many wrist-hours of watch wear has lead to how many busted crystals? In my case its close to1.1million hours of wear for 0 instances of crystal damage.

I would venture to suggest that very few of us as watch wearers get up in the morning and shake in our boots that today might be the day that we bust a watch crystal. It just isn't a consideration for folks - and this is a ceramic material!

As I tried to point out previously, most people don't have much experience with a terribly broad range of ceramic materials and tend to think of them as all one thing, when nothing could be further from the truth.

This makes as much sense as saying that since water is a liquid at room temperature, then all liquids must be water.

But back to the question of cost.

Sure the material is more expensive, the finishing process requires tooling that isn't cheap, the labour of the people involved is expensive and the branding is significant.

If I ask you to pay $60 for a Rolex, you'll assume that it is a cheap knock-off, not that I'm a generous guy. If I ask you to pay $100,000, and its not a Paul Newman, then its just way overpriced and everybody in the market for such knows that. But if I ask $6,000 then people judge its worth to be alligned with its cost and see the value proposition as equitable.

So you need to charge a luxury price if you expect your luxury customers to feel comfortable that they are getting value for there dollars. Its a Goldilocks think - too cheap and it won't work, too expensive and it won't work. Gotta be just right.

korenje · Jan 4, 2017

Considering that watch crystals are grown in plasma furnace, they have basically perfect structure so they are much harder to break than anything.

RegF · Jan 4, 2017

K korenje
This small machine is nowhere near good enough for pressing powder for sintering. Actually this small machine we had in school laboratory where we were sintering really small samples. Like I said to get the least porous result you need at least 100 tons press for watch case. Obviously the higher the pressed model is, more pressing is needed becuse of different density from top or bottom because of wall frictions. That is also regulated a bit with movement of bottom matrice and from bottom pressing as this presses press from both sides.

And you can see that the machine on omega website is basically the same as another from youtube that I've shown.

Its a 3-axis CAD/CAM mill, not a press that cust from 90mm discs-

And yes, these were for small runs and one-off and still cost a bomb.

As I said, I don't have pics of the big machines, they were proprietary. These made the 90mm discs or medium volume special shapes

So the bigger, more expensive machines invested in get paid off by spreading the cost of purchasing the machine over each part it makes over its useful ( either actual or financially depreciated) life.

All this is part of the cost of any manufactured good, and like I said, if I'm churning out ferrite cores for say 600 million mobile phones, then my cost per unit is lower than if I'm only making say 10,000 watch cases - and those numbers are just a guess for any given model and brand, but the principle still applies.

korenje · Jan 4, 2017

based on your photobuchket pictures you are playing with toys or maybe making them and you are just a watch fan.
oh well.
thought we had some engineer to engineer talk, but you appear to be just a salesman.

BlackTalon · Jan 4, 2017

Man, you really write some insulting things.

korenje · Jan 4, 2017

no insults meant 😉

Archer · Jan 4, 2017

RegF
I think in our previous discussion you mentioned that you didn't actually work on sapphire crystal watches, not sure and I'm not scanning all through the backlog right now....

I'll save you the trouble - I work on watches that have all types of crystals so acrylic, mineral glass, and sapphire. I tend to do more vintage work these days, but I currently have a couple of sapphire crystal watches in the shop (and more on the way from clients), so I see plenty of them.

RegF
I would venture to suggest that very few of us as watch wearers get up in the morning and shake in our boots that today might be the day that we bust a watch crystal. It just isn't a consideration for folks - and this is a ceramic material!

You make this comparison and this point in just about every thread on this subject, but as you are fully aware, risk perception is made up of more than just the probability that something will happen, but also the consequences of that thing happening. This is why I don't use climbing ropes and equipment to get on a step ladder to change a light bulb, but if I'm climbing a mountain I would.

This sapphire crystal comparison that you keep bringing into the discussion is a false equivalency. If a new ceramic replacement case were $300 to $700 US like a typical sapphire crystal is from Omega, I would agree with your points 100% But of course it's much more expensive than that.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, price plays a part in the discussion. People don't hesitate to have me change an acrylic crystal, because they are $35 or so. When I get a watch in with a damaged sapphire crystal (scratches, chips, and sometimes shattered) people hesitate more because they start at around $300 or so and go up from there (depends on the specific of the crystal). Many people decide to live with the slight damage rather than pay the costs associated with replacing the crystal.

If you want to believe that sapphire crystals don't get damaged, that is your prerogative. The reality however is quite different.

Cheers, Al

korenje · Jan 4, 2017

archer - lets be honest. statistically based on watch sales it happens really rarely.

Archer · Jan 4, 2017

K korenje
archer - lets be honest. statistically based on watch sales it happens really rarely.

Complete shattering of a sapphire crystal yes I would agree. Chips and scratches are not uncommon at all, in particular with designs where the edges of the crystal are exposed to impacts.

korenje · Jan 4, 2017

Mostly what I've seen is completly chewed stainless steel and no damage to the sapphire... I'd say scratching sapphire is much harder than basically chip it off or crack it.

Archer · Jan 4, 2017

For those who can pin down when their sapphire crystals got scratched, the most common culprit is the diamond ring their spouse is wearing, but there are other causes too that can result in more extensive damage, like this one...

Anything as hard or harder than sapphire can scratch it obviously. It happens...

tyrantlizardrex · Jan 4, 2017

The omega ceramic watches have a bit more going on than just a blank being cut, machines, polished.

Having had the tech talk from their head of product development at the Speedy Tuesday event, the ceramic is pressed, heated, cooled, polished, heated again with a mix of gasses to get the colours... they were talking over 24 hours in case production alone.

As to the "why" of their pricing?

Because they can.

ac106 · Jan 4, 2017

K korenje
no insults meant 😉

Of course not, I mean who could possibly be offended by your posts?

Nobel Prize · Jan 4, 2017

If you want to place the sale value of any luxury watch against the production value of a single piece then pretty much all watches are way over-prized and too expensive...that's why there is an Industry build around selling watches.

Other things you should consider. You are overpaying for your car, your clothes, your home, your jewelry, your partners jewelry, your phone, your phone plan, your internet and cable service....your Starbucks coffee, your whole foods steaks.

Enjoy your watch without guilt.

gostang9 · Jan 4, 2017

Archer
Yes sapphire crystals fail, as do ceramic cases, so in that way they are completely comparable. In terms of replacement costs though, they are most certainly not...

For me, I think of damage risk based on the type of damage or failure that would occur during 'intended use'. The shattered crystal @Archer shared is mine, but I feel it happened due to my carelessness and from something where you could never expect any watch to escape without some harm. I dropped it from a height of ~1m (3 ft) onto a solid tile floor and it happened to land crystal first (not helping was the fact it has the cyclops - although I doubt lack of cyclops would have changed the outcome). I wouldn't expect any watch to escape unharmed if dropped as this one was, although cost of repair for my Speedy would likely have been much lower...)

During 14 months of regular wearing on my wrist, the Rolex saphire crystal was perfect. The rest of the watch case shows multiple minor scuffs, scratches and dings from regular use (not a 'safe-queen') and so I'd say the saphire is very dependable when used properly.

I've owned a Hesalite Speedmaster for a few months now and have worn it often since aquiring (also not a 'safe-queen'). The crystal shows many scratches from use that the saphire does not.

What would potentially concern me about the ceramic is that you pay a premium to avoid minor scuffs, scratches and dings from regular use and somehow you gain the risk of serious damage (albeit rare) from things that happen during regular use.

gostang9 · Jan 4, 2017

Nobel Prize
Enjoy your watch without guilt.

Well said... and, if you want a mechanical watch without the premium, buy a Seiko.

I work in automotive, and if you want a great 'value' car, buy a 2 year old compact car with no options coming off a lease. Most of the depreciation is gone, and the OEM prices these below, at, or near cost. If you instead choose a brand-new fully loaded high end vehicle, you will pay a hefty premium over manufacture costs because people are willing to pay a premium for them.

Bushido · Jan 4, 2017

Nobel Prize
If you want to place the sale value of any luxury watch against the production value of a single piece then pretty much all watches are way over-prized and too expensive...that's why there is an Industry build around selling watches.

Other things you should consider. You are overpaying for your car, your clothes, your home, your jewelry, your partners jewelry, your phone, your phone plan, your internet and cable service....your Starbucks coffee, your whole foods steaks.

Enjoy your watch without guilt.

Well said Sergio.

If we are going to compare actual cost of manufacture to retail cost of watches from Omega, Rolex, and up the ladder then we'll always come out with purchase price points being far and away above cost. The value of any given purchase is beholden to no one but each individual consumer as they do their own cost vs benefit analysis on a product.

When it comes to Omega's ceramic watches, I personally have chosen to purchase and enjoy. My decision was based upon aesthetics of the watch, quality of movement placed therein, and risk vs reward on failure of the case/risk of chipping juxtaposed to no worries about scratching and simple wear and tear of the watch.

While my personal decision came out if favor of buying, many others came to the opposite conclusion. In neither case, is one consumer objectively correct.

Pulling back the analytical lens a bit to a more macroscopic position on this topic: I often read arguments from individuals attempting to establish an objective meter stick on value proposition for luxury watches. In every instance, it is an exercise in futility and argument for/against subjective opinion. Cost of material and manufacture for ANY watch at these price points is pennies on the dollar when put up against retail cost.

TLDR Version: Person A doesn't think buying one of Omega's ceramic watches is worth it to them. So, they don't. I think they are worth it. So, I did. Neither position is accurate beyond the scope of themselves.

Ceramic watches too expensive

korenje

RegF

korenje

RegF

korenje

RegF

korenje

BlackTalon

korenje

Archer

korenje

Archer

korenje

Archer

tyrantlizardrex

ac106

Nobel Prize

gostang9

gostang9

Bushido

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