I've seen how they make ceramic watches. They are in fact just pressed and sintered like ferrite cores - to practically almost finished shape. They debure edges in a machine, then if needed they satin brush the surfaces. To me it seems like there is less work involved than on titanium or stainless steel watches. So why are they so expensive?

 

Why so expensive? Because they can and still sell enough.

In the world of luxury products, production costs don't always reflect the selling prices.

 

true true...

 

Rado watches are quite affordable (compared to Omega ceramic watches) ...

 

Supply and demand. The market they are selling to doesn't understand the lack in value, they see a clean black watch that will last forever.

 

In one way you are correct. The raw disc of zironia is about $90.

However, the CAD CAM system that machines them to the precise dimensions is several million dollars. The sintering processors and infusions are also not cheap. The dimensions also need to account for shrinkage when fired and the spoilage rate is fairly high compared to metalwork.

The R&D involved in determining which base substrate to use, which infusions, how many and which sintering and final firing all cost money.

Recouping those costs must be done somehow.

Similarly, you will also, from a marketing standpoint, not want to piss over your brand by selling it too cheap or potential customers won't want it.

By way of comparison the equivalent amount of 316L stainless steel would be worth around $0.18. And it is just milled and ground, so why is it so expensive?

After all stainless steel, mills and grinders are not expensive machining processes...

My friend, the degree of craft and the degree of science and the degree of engineering that goes into the manufacture of these little gadgets that we all love is pretty staggering.

 

There are no "raw discs". It's pressed into finished shape. and all the problems you mention with sintering, it's the same with ferrite cores which can sometimes be even more complicated shapes.

swiss working hour is 100€. and is the watch has more techonological processes it will cost more. When you mill a wach it can take 2 hours. (but I think even stainless steel watches are pressed becuse they get harder and more corrsion resistive). when you press a watch it takes 10 seconds. Obviously there needs to be machining done to make holes or something but still a lot less work working time for employees.

 

Have you ever chipped one of your sapphire crystals? It is a ceramic material that is hard but brittle, but most of us don't give this risk a second thought.

Zirconia is about 4 times stronger than steel once it is infused, sintered and fired. We've gone over this before at some length here.

Realistically, the spring bar failing and dropping your watch into the ocean on a boat is way more likely.

 

I have spent 35 years working with this material, and other ceramic substrates. All the blanks are pressed. All the final shapes are then machined. Its just how the Zirconia material is handled. The company that I worked for had a subsidiary in Lichtenstein that made all the cases for a Swiss brandand they were aall CAD -Camm machined from 90mm blank discs.

If volumes were sufficient, then the blanks could be pressed into more complex shapes, like the outline of a case before the machine, sintering and infusionsand final firing

Ferrite isn't the same at all. And then there's economies of scale. The world of electrocics consumes squillions of ferrite cores, so the economies of scale of mass production are massive compared to watch cases.

Just not the same things at all.

 

I've been working in a company that produces ferrite cores and obviously desire is to get the finished shape with one pressing. There can still be some additional grinding done if there are too much deformations. And ferrite cores are exactly the same. You got base metal and bondings that are pressed and then sintered.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhE-UWQsw1M&t=0m44s

at 0:44.

seems your 35 years is either a lie or you were just a worker behind a machine.

 

What makes you think price has anything to do with cost of materials and manhours in watches?

Do you think a Rolex sub costs 2x a 300mc to make?

 

This was recently posted in the "Watch Foes" thread, and it won't be a cheap fix, but you could still do this repair 4 or 5 times over before you get to the cost of one ceramic Omega case:



Yes sapphire crystals fail, as do ceramic cases, so in that way they are completely comparable. In terms of replacement costs though, they are most certainly not...

Cheers, Al

 

Yup, that's the pressed blank disc. Then between 0:57 to 1:02 there's the CAD /CAM machining of the blank

The ones we did were slightly different, in that the shape of the blank was cut from a pressed disk before the firing

The infusions aren't show in the video and there will be several, to alter properties and colour and texture

SO not the same as Ferrite and nowhere near the same scale of production volumes

But to get back to the original point, while it is basically a sub $100 blank, compared to steel, its 500 times more expensive than 316L steel and the finishing processes and machinery are more expensive and the volumes are lower.

 

RegF is just someone without proper education. - no offense meant.
Blank chip is a chip, not a watch case. And yes I can see at 0:57 that only surfaces are polished or brushed. Obviously after sintering you don't get polished surface. The color is done with plasma burning.
Technological process is basically exactly the same as production of ferrite cores, even the machines and tools are the same.

Here's an old machine without manipulator.

 

Without re-hashing this thread all over again, which was not the original question, how many smashed crystals are there out there compared to the total number of crystals? How many have you seen in your career, compared to the number of watches serviced? Out of all of us reading, out of the total hours of wrist time, how many busted crystals are there here? The same is applicable to ceramic cases. We just don't consider a busted crystal to be so big a risk that we don't own or wear the watch.

And sure they are more expensive to replace, there's more of the watch involved for any given model in any given brand.

My point in the above was in response to the comment from Steve above about feeling uncomfortable about the chances, when in reality we are all already taking chances just wearing our sapphire crystals.

I posted the various physical properties of several of the materials in the previous thread here.

In summary, the strength of ceramic materials like those used in watch cases is about 4 times that of 316L steel for flexural and compressive failures. The difference is that at failure the zirconia will shear, while the steel will bend before shearing

One of my demos back in the day was to take a small part made from ceramic material weaker than zirconia, and fling it onto a concrete floor and then stomp on it. Never, ever broke one in 30 years. Watch cases are bigger than the part involved and didn't then have other complex structures and additional mass added to them making them many times heavier than just the ceramic, but the point is, it is a very tough material, not the same as your granny's tea cups, so don't try this unless its a Panerai - I'm not a Panerai fan ;-)

As to cost, its all in the handling and then the marketing.

I have been told that the Swiss get well paid. I know the guys in Lichtenstein sure did!

 

If the Swiss can turn stainless steel into a precious metal, then watch out for the price of more exotic materials!

 

FIFY...Saying it's taking the same chances is disingenuous at best...