Big Triangle thoughts? Franken or not?

Barnz · Nov 13, 2021

Actually got a reply from seller this am …

I told him the watch was fake / franken and wanted a refund. This is his response and his original chrono listing.

https://www.chrono24.co.nz/omega/se...e-military--id20573197.htm?checkoutId=4082730

“Thats not true ! U got the watch more than 1 month ago and u said u got an estimate for repair cost from omega repair agents . If the watch was fake they was telling u . Movement is absolutely genuine , the bezel hands and dial i reported to you that ares afterset. You cant tell me this after more than 1 months . Anyway i have to ask paypal and chrono24 too about this”

yes I have been naive but he still claims the watch is genuine.

Barnz · Nov 13, 2021

Link doesn't load from my post but here are screen shots from my laptop

sleepyastronaut · Nov 13, 2021

B Barnz
yes I have been naive but he still claims the watch is genuine.

Keep pushing back. Remind him that he sold you a Counterfeit watch, and has defrauded you.

Let him know you don't want to have to complain to the authorities, but you will go to the police if he forces you to.

Let him know the decision is his, he can give you a refund and you'll walk away quietly, or he can refuse which will force you to do what you have to.

jaegodylan · Nov 13, 2021

B Barnz
https://www.chrono24.co.nz/omega/se...e-military--id20573197.htm?checkoutId=4082730

“Thats not true ! U got the watch more than 1 month ago and u said u got an estimate for repair cost from omega repair agents . If the watch was fake they was telling u . Movement is absolutely genuine , the bezel hands and dial i reported to you that ares afterset. You cant tell me this after more than 1 months . Anyway i have to ask paypal and chrono24 too about this”

yes I have been naive but he still claims the watch is genuine.

he doesn’t claim it’s genuine. He states the hands, bezel and dial are aftermarket.. aka fake. I would suspect the case is as well.

The movement being genuine isn’t of much value as it’s out of the correct serial range and likely just from another model.

He also writes like an adolescent psychopath.

Scarecrow Boat · Nov 13, 2021

I agree with the above that the sellers listing is clearly stating parts of this watch are aftermarket IE fake. However the listing states the case is genuine, which it is *not and it has been clearly manipulated into something it never was: military. Likely to match the “refinished” dial. As you said, you paid off platform, so C24 isn’t going to help you, but this is still worth notifying them about the seller. Definitely initiate a refund with PP (hopefully you didn’t pay F&F) and definitely stop talking to the seller. You tried and is no longer worth the time.

*

watchyouwant
the mil. Numbers are laser engraved. That was not done in the 70's. So, clearly a fake.

edit:typo and clarification

Barnz · Nov 13, 2021

jaegodylan
he doesn’t claim it’s genuine. He states the hands, bezel and dial are aftermarket.. aka fake. I would suspect the case is as well.

The movement being genuine isn’t of much value as it’s out of the correct serial range and likely just from another model.

He also writes like an adolescent psychopath.

Now he says they are aftermarket. Not before purchase. This is the first mention of the hands. In his description (see screen shots) he says it is a Big Triangle and the year is 1968. He says the dial is refinished and the bezel has been replaced. I didn’t pay attention to the 166.024 mechanism which I now appreciate means a date version so the clues are plain for the wise.
I put the poor syntax down to being Greek and English second language.

JwRosenthal · Nov 13, 2021

He got $8k out of you, for a watch that’s not worth a few hundred bucks in aftermarket parts. This was a big payday for him, he isn’t going to let it go easily. My first step, as suggested before, would be to go to PayPal and claim a fraudulent sale. This watch is not what he described. Forget Chrono other than to notify that he’s a fraud- they won’t care since you went outside of their platform. PayPal is your best recourse at the moment. Don’t try rationalizing with the seller- he got what he wanted.

bgrisso · Nov 13, 2021

You need to work quickly and aggressively to get your money back. I have been in this situation before and it's easy to keep letting time go by, giving people the benefit of doubt, thinking it was your mistake, etc. You need to forget all that.

The main question that I have not seen answered is if you made payment via paypal using friends and family or goods and services ?

If goods and services, then work with Paypal to file a complaint for counterfeit item / fraud. You should able to work with Paypal on this regardless of what the seller might be saying to you, it doesn't matter, it's between you and Paypal.

If you did friends and family, did you use a credit card? If so, work with the CC company for fraud and see if the charges can be reversed.

The CC may want the know the ## of the police report, I'm not sure how it works there. Paypal might as well, not sure. The police won't really do anything other than take the report and get you the report #, as that is all anyone usually cares about (they are not actually going to do anything about it other than file the report).

If you did not use CC and it was your bank account, then call your bank ASAP and try to do the same thing (fraud, counterfeit, etc) and see if they can do a chargeback, which they were able to do in my case, which was an ACH transfer. The laws regarding this are different in different countries.

Keep in mind this person intentionally ripped you off, a very large amount of money. Don't worry about C24 right now, work with Paypal/CC/bank to do everything possible to get your money back. I would not wait to file police report, but if you feel you must, give the person a deadline, such as........"if I have not received a refund by such and such day (I would not allow more than 1-2 business days), then I will be filing a police report."

Basically nothing of what this person says to you in any correspondence means anything, all that matters is getting the money back. You can continue to carry on a dialogue with them while doing all the other stuff above, if you wish. Or not.

Good luck, I hope you can get your $$ back.

watchyouwant · Nov 13, 2021

sleepyastronaut
Keep pushing back. Remind him that he sold you a Counterfeit watch, and has defrauded you.

Let him know you don't want to have to complain to the authorities, but you will go to the police if he forces you to.

Let him know the decision is his, he can give you a refund and you'll walk away quietly, or he can refuse which will force you to do what you have to.

Sounds good, but gentleman behaviour is no longer warranted. Police . With the movement number and the fake case back mil. Numbers mentioned . State, the Omega Factory can not verify, that they delivered this military Seamaster 300 to the UK Army. Mention in the police report, that the fraud mentioned the year and tell, that the mil. Engravings are laser engraved, which not available in the late 1960's. That should do it. With the Report number start PayPal/ Bank and the platform. Massive action needed here, if you want to rectify your lazy mistakes.

Barnz · Nov 13, 2021

Thanks to you all - I have contacted PayPal, Spoken to NZ police, posted in fake watches thread.
I note my watch shop is listed on Omegawatches.com as an Omega Authorised Service Centre so I will push them to help me (given that two technicians missed this, or didn't want to inform me)

watchyouwant · Nov 13, 2021

Something else : Contact Marcus Alexander in Auckland. He is the guy behind Watchco and now in NZ. He can certify in writing for you, that it is a complete fake/ new mil laser engravings aso. A good bottle might help to get that done. With that paper, everything after that gets much easier.

Barnz · Nov 13, 2021

sleepyastronaut
Would love to see them, especially grandpa's Longines and dad's GP; please post pics.

You're not an idiot, people get scammed all the time. You've paid the "newbie tax," do what you can to return the watch, get a refund and/or be made whole, and move on. If you're still interested in pursuing vintage watches, make sure you read through "Learn How to Fish," and look carefully at every other example of the same reference before you buy, so you can see what's different between those and the one you're considering:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/learn-how-to-fish.52603/

This is my current lot - photographed on fathers day here when my boys gave me the book with stories - it means a lot to them too. The Maurice Lacroix was my 21st from parents, the Tissot a gift from my wife 25 years ago (both quartz and suffering from the "more expensive to repair than to replace problem) My own personal Quartz crisis. The IWC Portofino was a recent gift from my wife to replace the Tissot and I have in mind a Patek Philipe Calatrava 1989 to replace the Maurice Lacroix of the same year. I am a little wary of my next purchase ...
The other photo is my own Planet ocean, with 3 of 4 sons various seamasters of their choosing. One to go and I have a 2005 Planet ocean for him (his birth year).

My father's watch and grandfather's are still with my father and I don't have images to hand. He is a clock nut rather than a watch but 20 clocks would drive me mad - we have to silence all the chimes when we stay! So I have chosen a different path.

Richard G · Nov 14, 2021

Hello Barnz and welcome to our club of those who have seared our fingers dipping into the vintage Omega fire. Unfortunately, it is not only the scammers that you have to watch out for. As you have experienced, Omega certified service centers sometimes have less than minimal knowledge. And even the people at the vintage watch service department at the Omega factory in Biel/Bienne sometimes run out of runway in judging the authenticity of their own watches. I have had devastating experiences with them in the early 2000's and my total helplessness and frustration with their "service" has kept me "offline" for more than a decade. This is not to say that things might have improved somewhat in the meantime or that other manufacturers are doing an adequate or better job in servicing the vintage community. At least Omega are still returning original parts with the serviced watch. Try that with Rolex...
If only manufacturers would hound the fakers of vintage watches and vintage parts in the same way they are going after the replicas and fakes of their current watches. Thousands of those are confiscated here and destroyed every year. And even that is only the tip of the iceberg.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you to successfully get your money back.
Cheers from Switzerland
Richard G

Tony C. · Nov 14, 2021

And some have wondered why I have long refused to do business with Chrono24 due to their "Private Seller" policy.

Does anyone believe that this is the first time that this seller has ripped off an unsophisticated buyer? Does anyone believe that he would be in a comfortable position to do so repetitively on Chrono24 without his details being withheld from the public?

And this policy:

Screen Shot 2021-11-14 at 5.38.24 PM.png

is a clear admission that "Private Sellers" cannot, as a group, be trusted.

Disgraceful.

P.S. - The OP has shown courage by making this public, and admitting to his mistakes. When people are scammed for significant money, the embarrassment frequently prevents them from doing so, which, in turn, has the effect of further enabling the bad actors.

Barnz · Nov 14, 2021

Thanks I had a good experience with repairs to my planet ocean after a dive in Fiji with a loose crown. That was sent to Europe, Omega repaired it and returned the parts as you describe.
This from the seller today was interesting

Im sorry but im a dealer and i cant do directly remburse without contacting PayPal and Chrono24 too .
I want to feel safe too if i recieve the watch in same condition i have send with the same parts and with nothing changed . It have beed more than 40 days and if you put yourself in my position u will do the same thing . As i told u before im not anonymos seller but im dealer. So i have called PayPal and will wait their reply . You dont need to pay any shipping cost as if they decide that i have to pay i will do . vut be sure u upload photo of actually watch u have to send back .
I have to inform Athens Police too so i can feel safe.

JwRosenthal · Nov 14, 2021

Tony C.
And some have wondered why I have long refused to do business with Chrono24 due to their "Private Seller" policy.

Does anyone believe that this is the first time that this seller has ripped off an unsophisticated buyer? Does anyone believe that he would be in a comfortable position to do so repetitively on Chrono24 without his details being withheld from the public?

And this policy:

is a clear admission that "Private Sellers" cannot, as a group, be trusted.

Disgraceful.

P.S. - The OP has shown courage by making this public, and admitting to his mistakes. When people are scammed for significant money, the embarrassment frequently prevents them from doing so, which, in turn, has the effect of further enabling the bad actors.

Thank for saying this Tony. I don’t know @Barnz and he is new to this group-so none of us know his background or experience with watches, but this thread early on really bothered me with the victim shaming.
We forget that we are the 1% of people who buy watches- we know what to look for. The other 99% just want a cool old watch and don’t realize that there are sharks in the water.
As the 1%, I feel it is incumbent upon us to take people at their word and offer advise that can help them navigate the dangerous waters of this hobby- it costs us nothing.
If you feel the need to victim shame, go stand in front of a battered woman’s shelter and tell them they should have seen it coming as they walk in.

rob#1 · Nov 14, 2021

B Barnz
Thanks I had a good experience with repairs to my planet ocean after a dive in Fiji with a loose crown. That was sent to Europe, Omega repaired it and returned the parts as you describe.
This from the seller today was interesting

Im sorry but im a dealer and i cant do directly remburse without contacting PayPal and Chrono24 too .
I want to feel safe too if i recieve the watch in same condition i have send with the same parts and with nothing changed . It have beed more than 40 days and if you put yourself in my position u will do the same thing . As i told u before im not anonymos seller but im dealer. So i have called PayPal and will wait their reply . You dont need to pay any shipping cost as if they decide that i have to pay i will do . vut be sure u upload photo of actually watch u have to send back .
I have to inform Athens Police too so i can feel safe.

Best wishes for a speedy resolution of this transaction.

I have never come cross a dealer who writes so poorly, even google translate could write better than this.

sleepyastronaut · Nov 14, 2021

B Barnz
Thanks I had a good experience with repairs to my planet ocean after a dive in Fiji with a loose crown. That was sent to Europe, Omega repaired it and returned the parts as you describe.
This from the seller today was interesting

Im sorry but im a dealer and i cant do directly remburse without contacting PayPal and Chrono24 too .
I want to feel safe too if i recieve the watch in same condition i have send with the same parts and with nothing changed . It have beed more than 40 days and if you put yourself in my position u will do the same thing . As i told u before im not anonymos seller but im dealer. So i have called PayPal and will wait their reply . You dont need to pay any shipping cost as if they decide that i have to pay i will do . vut be sure u upload photo of actually watch u have to send back .
I have to inform Athens Police too so i can feel safe.

Sounds like you're gaining traction.

Let the seller know you are prepared to return the watch, and that he will receive it in the same condition he has send it, with the same parts and with no changes. Let the seller know he will have to sign for the package. Get acknowledgement from the seller that he understands you are shipping back the watch for a full refund of the purchase price. Make sure he understands you expect a full refund within 24 hours of his signing for the package. Make sure there is no room for misunderstanding: you are returning the watch he sent, in the condition he sent it, and you expect a full refund without delay.

Ask the seller for the return shipping address where he will sign for the shipment. Make sure he knows he has to be there, that the return will not be left if he does not sign for it. Make sure he provides a full name, phone number, and any other delivery instructions, so you can provide this to the shipper.

Take many, many pics. Take pics from all angles. Take pics in daylight. Take pics of the movement. Take pics of the packaging process. Wrap the watch in bubble wrap and secure with rubber bands. Seal it inside a small, sturdy box, then wrap that box in bubble wrap, before packing in the shipping box. Take pics all along the way. Send the pics to the seller and get confirmation that he's received them.

Choose a shipping method that requires a signature from the seller. You're paying for the shipping, so that you can ensure it gets there, gets signed for, and gets returned to you if not signed for, and you can make a claim if damaged during transit. Let the seller know you're not waiting for a 'paypal reply.' Make sure you insure the shipment for the total amount you've paid.

Keep the communication channel open. Provide the tracking number. Let the seller know when you've handed the package to the shipper. Communicate with the seller every day, giving them the status of the shipment. Once the shipment is signed for, reiterate your expectation that you will receive a refund within 24h.

Lastly, let the seller know that if he opens a case with the Athens Police, you will reciprocate by opening a case with your local police department. Ask for the case number he received from the Athens Police. Offer to provide all of the above information to the Athens Police.

Best of luck!

Barnz · Nov 14, 2021

He become quite chatty since paypal froze his funds! I will get a certificate of "non-authenticity" (is that a thing?) from the omega agent today to confirm with paypal.

sleepyastronaut
Sounds like you're gaining traction.

Let the seller know you are prepared to return the watch, and that he will receive it in the same condition he has send it, with the same parts and with no changes. Let the seller know he will have to sign for the package. Get acknowledgement from the seller that he understands you are shipping back the watch for a full refund of the purchase price. Make sure he understands you expect a full refund within 24 hours of his signing for the package. Make sure there is no room for misunderstanding: you are returning the watch he sent, in the condition he sent it, and you expect a full refund without delay.

Ask the seller for the return shipping address where he will sign for the shipment. Make sure he knows he has to be there, that the return will not be left if he does not sign for it. Make sure he provides a full name, phone number, and any other delivery instructions, so you can provide this to the shipper.

Take many, many pics. Take pics from all angles. Take pics in daylight. Take pics of the movement. Take pics of the packaging process. Wrap the watch in bubble wrap and secure with rubber bands. Seal it inside a small, sturdy box, then wrap that box in bubble wrap, before packing in the shipping box. Take pics all along the way. Send the pics to the seller and get confirmation that he's received them.

Choose a shipping method that requires a signature from the seller. You're paying for the shipping, so that you can ensure it gets there, gets signed for, and gets returned to you if not signed for, and you can make a claim if damaged during transit. Let the seller know you're not waiting for a 'paypal reply.' Make sure you insure the shipment for the total amount you've paid.

Keep the communication channel open. Provide the tracking number. Let the seller know when you've handed the package to the shipper. Communicate with the seller every day, giving them the status of the shipment. Once the shipment is signed for, reiterate your expectation that you will receive a refund within 24h.

Lastly, let the seller know that if he opens a case with the Athens Police, you will reciprocate by opening a case with your local police department. Ask for the case number he received from the Athens Police. Offer to provide all of the above information to the Athens Police.

Best of luck!

Thanks. PayPal have frozen his account and funds. I have copied my police report to them. Linked to chrono listing, his correspondence, watchmaker report and this thread plus detailed outline of why this is not a “1968 big triangle military” as advertised.

machamp6650 · Nov 14, 2021

B Barnz
repairs to my planet ocean after a dive in Fiji with a loose crown

Funny coincidence, my PO also needed a trip to the watchmaker for repairs after a trip to Fiji. Only time I've ever really damaged one of my own watches. But in my case it was from dropping the thing directly onto the tiled floor of my hotel in Denarau. There may have possibly been a few beers involved...

Anyway best of luck with the dealer and resolving the matter as soon as possible

Big Triangle thoughts? Franken or not?

Barnz

Barnz

sleepyastronaut

jaegodylan

Scarecrow Boat

Barnz

JwRosenthal

bgrisso

watchyouwant

Barnz

watchyouwant

Barnz

Richard G

Tony C.

Barnz

JwRosenthal

rob#1

sleepyastronaut

Barnz

machamp6650

Similar threads

Omega Seamaster 300 165.024 165024 Big Triangle

Seamaster 300 Big Triangle 166024

Omega Big Triangle remake?

300SM Big Triangle

Omega seamaster 300 big triangle

Omega Seamaster 300 166.024 Big Triangle