Big Triangle thoughts? Franken or not?

omegaman · Nov 12, 2021

[EDITED]: Well, we see a new type of counterfeited caseback here! Enough said about the dial and movement. But what's really new, are the faked military markings. Usualy we see stubbies with the issue number A/254/67, but this copies the A204/67 from the december 2018 Phillips auction, linked below. And it seems to be mechanically engraved (or at least mechanically reworked), not just the pure laser engraving as usual.

https://www.phillips.com/detail/OMEGA/NY080118/20

Barnz · Nov 12, 2021

Agreed it is not

Shabbaz
Yes. You have to be careful out there. Although I'm a private seller on chrono. And I think the watches I sold there were quite good and priced well. Nowadays I sell less and more here on OF.

omegaman
Wow, we see a new level of counterfeited caseback here! Enough said about the dial and movement. But what is really new, is the faked military markings. Usualy we see a stubbies with the issue number 254/67 laser engraved. But this copies the A204/67 from the december 2018 Phillips auction linked below. And it is obviously well done and mechanical engraved, not by laser. If these idiots took another number close by and a real dial and matching movement number... well you get my point.

https://www.phillips.com/detail/OMEGA/NY080118/20

Yes I stumbled across the Phillips auction last week and that was the clincher for me that this was not just a watch in need of work with a refinished dial that would never be super valuable. I didn't think for am moment the watch I paid NZD$8k for might be worth $125K. Happy to name and shame the seller but I don't like to bad mouth people without all the facts and my "omega certified" watch repairer said it was genuine and was happy to service it and fix the issues for $1,000. To me a working, serviced old watch was all I was looking for.

It was a private seller but definitely a dealer with a commercial named email address and an Instagram watch dedicated account. He portrayed himself as a dealer who could source other watches if I wished. We had a significant back and forth discussion which he moved off chrono to his Insta profile and we concluded the deal over PayPal.

Freight takes a while from Europe to NZ especially during COVID so purchase was Sep 24. I didn't receive it for 3 weeks.

I don’t expect Chrono24 to honour this , given the few weeks that have now elapsed and that the purchase was concluded outside Chrono24.
I have been well and truly scammed despite doing what I thought was enough homework. once I received the watch I took it straight to an “omega certified” service agent because of my concerns. They still have it and photographed it for me for this forum.

I don't imagine Chrono24 will take any action as the seller moved my conversation to instagram and we completed the deal via PayPal.
I'll post the original Chrono24 photos (yeah yeah stubbies I see them now!. The seller has gone strangely silent to my messages despite being active on instagram. Quelle surprise!

omegaman · Nov 12, 2021

Try to get your money back via Paypal. If it took so long to receive the bought item, there still might be a chance... unless you sent the money via the friends option. Then it's definetively gone.

Shabbaz · Nov 12, 2021

B Barnz
I don’t expect Chrono24 to honour this , given the few weeks that have now elapsed and that the purchase was concluded outside Chrono24.
I have been well and truly scammed despite doing what I thought was enough homework. once I received the watch I took it straight to an “omega certified” service agent because of my concerns. They still have it and photographed it for me for this forum.

I don't imagine Chrono24 will take any action as the seller moved my conversation to instagram and we completed the deal via PayPal.

Yes, you've been scammed. You need to report this to chrono. They have his identity papers. His account has to be removed as well. What a complete di$#head

Edit: chrono probably wont do anything because you and the seller took the sale outside chrono which is in violation of the chrono rules.

Shabbaz · Nov 12, 2021

omegaman
Try to get your money back via Paypal. If it took so long to receive the bought item, there still might be a chance... unless you sent the money via the friends option. Then it's definetively gone.

This. Paypal mostly is in favour of buyers. Did you keep the original description on chrono? You can start a claim at Paypal within 180 days after purchase (i think) unless it's F&F

gemini4 · Nov 12, 2021

If you used a credit card via PayPal you have the rights to a chargeback .

Barnz · Nov 12, 2021

Shabbaz
This. Paypal mostly is in favour of buyers. Did you keep the original description on chrono? You can start a claim at Paypal within 180 days after purchase (i think) unless it's F&F

Yes I have the description and will work through PayPal. Thanks.

redpcar · Nov 12, 2021

Have you had any communication with the seller after receipt of the watch?

Barnz · Nov 12, 2021

If anyone wants a good genuine watch at a cheap price, look at Absolute watches on Instagram ;-) you can email A Altin direct on

redpcar
Have you had any communication with the seller after receipt of the watch?

Yes when I complained on the day of receipt of the watch that the bezel was faulty and explained it needed servicing (advertised as fully serviced) he offered to pay for the service. I have asked him repeatedly to pay. Promises but no action. Oh one more photo ...

Redwes25 · Nov 12, 2021

B Barnz
Agreed it is not

Yes I stumbled across the Phillips auction last week and that was the clincher for me that this was not just a watch in need of work with a refinished dial that would never be super valuable. I didn't think for am moment the watch I paid NZD$8k for might be worth $125K. Happy to name and shame the seller but I don't like to bad mouth people without all the facts and my "omega certified" watch repairer said it was genuine and was happy to service it and fix the issues for $1,000. To me a working, serviced old watch was all I was looking for.

It was a private seller but definitely a dealer with a commercial named email address and an Instagram watch dedicated account. He portrayed himself as a dealer who could source other watches if I wished. We had a significant back and forth discussion which he moved off chrono to his Insta profile and we concluded the deal over PayPal.

Freight takes a while from Europe to NZ especially during COVID so purchase was Sep 24. I didn't receive it for 3 weeks.

I don’t expect Chrono24 to honour this , given the few weeks that have now elapsed and that the purchase was concluded outside Chrono24.
I have been well and truly scammed despite doing what I thought was enough homework. once I received the watch I took it straight to an “omega certified” service agent because of my concerns. They still have it and photographed it for me for this forum.

I don't imagine Chrono24 will take any action as the seller moved my conversation to instagram and we completed the deal via PayPal.
I'll post the original Chrono24 photos (yeah yeah stubbies I see them now!. The seller has gone strangely silent to my messages despite being active on instagram. Quelle surprise!

Honestly, I think you should. He clearly committed fraud and it would be beneficial to other future buyers. There is even a thread with a list of known scammers and he clearly belongs on it if he sold a fake watch.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/known-scammer-list-please-post-any-known-scammers-here.66577/

Lurk41 · Nov 12, 2021

As he is on insta and if you have a bit of time, you can also start to spam his new publications saying he is selling fake and do not answer after transaction is concluded + link to here (or any other forum you may have discussed with the same conclusion).

Maybe people will start to think twice before liking posts or contacting him to buy a watch...

watchyouwant · Nov 12, 2021

Your last pictures show clearly, that the mil. Numbers are laser engraved. That was not done in the 70's. So, clearly a fake. Next step: report to NZ police for internet fraud. Get a police report number and claim your money from PayPal/ credit card company. Inform the factory in about the police investigation with the mvmt. Number and pictures. The EU had internet fraud reporting facilities too. Do what you can and go all avenues.

JwRosenthal · Nov 12, 2021

gemini4
If you used a credit card via PayPal you have the rights to a chargeback .

Yup!

JwRosenthal · Nov 12, 2021

watchyouwant
Your last pictures show clearly, that the mil. Numbers are laser engraved. That was not done in the 70's. So, clearly a fake. Next step: report to NZ police for internet fraud. Get a police report number and claim your money from PayPal/ credit card company. Inform the factory in about the police investigation with the mvmt. Number and pictures. The EU had internet fraud reporting facilities too. Do what you can and go all avenues.

I’m liking where this is going- seller is a scam artist and this is fraud. If he actually described this as authentic in his listing, then he misrepresented it. If he was careful in his wording (as some seller are with words like “restored”, “just like” or “faithful to the original”) he may be able to slip out of it.

watchlovr · Nov 12, 2021

gemini4
In conducting the most basic pre purchase due diligence, how is it possible that the OP (or his advisors) did not notice that this watch contains a caliber 562 movement. This movement is not only incorrect BUT contains a date wheel?????

I don’t believe a word he’s coming out with. Don’t give him anything.

omegaman · Nov 13, 2021

watchyouwant
Your last pictures show clearly, that the mil. Numbers are laser engraved. That was not done in the 70's. ...

I had to correct my previous post about the engraving is well done. It seems so at the 1st caseback picture, but the 2nd clearly indicates it as a fake. Though I am not sure if it is laser engraved, looks at least mechanically reworked or etched afterwords. However, it is rather bad made.

omegaman · Nov 13, 2021

watchlovr
I don’t believe a word he’s coming out with. Don’t give him anything.

After re-reading all the OPs posts, I also have the impression that something is fishy about that whole story.

In the initial post he states he made his homework prior buying... that most of the watch was clearly authentic... and he just likes to know how much work is needed to get the watch in the correct condition.
Then he said he stumbled over the Phillips auction after I mentioned it and that he felt something was not right... but he did not say a word about that in his 1st post.
He said the stubbies were not visible at the pictures he received, but even a mole could spot them at the chrono24 pictures.
Finally, the mil engraving looks somehow different at the pictures from his "certified Omega watchmaker" compared to that from chrono24. Could be the light or angle, but all that does not match up.

😗

Barnz · Nov 13, 2021

I am sorry you dont believe me. If you do an exercise and search omega big triangle on Chrono24 today you will see 14 watches between NZD $10k and $25k (my local currency) which would you pick? Maybe any of these 14?

put yourselves in my shoes looking for what I said I wanted and comparing options. I have explained that this was my first “second hand purchase” and was not looking for a particularly valuable watch.

Thanks to your expertise I now see how stupidly obvious this is (including the date wheel). But I didn’t pay attention to that.

who should I trust? My local watchmaker, Ilam watchmakers? Look them up they seem legit? Chrono24 with their assurances?

I appreciate your time, interest and comments and it has been humbling seeing how stupid I have been. And hard to lay that out here.
My stupidest comment here was that I see value in it. Part of the sentiment and story that made me interested in a vintage (rather than another new watch) is what I expect keeps all you doing this.
My grandfathers 1930s Longines that survived a swim in the upper Nile, my fathers Girard Perregaux he got for his 21st, the from new seamasters I own and those I have bought for my sons.
Look forget it. I’m an idiot. I will try to get a refund, I don’t like my chances …

here is the email from my local when o sent him the link to the Phillips auction last Tuesday I can hear your laughter already and as I have said, it was then the game was really up.

As per phone call with Geoff - attached are the photos.

Geoff has looked at the link you sent and believes the dial in that photo is in better condition than the one of yours so you probably would not get the same price.

thanks
Erica

Official Service Centre for Omega, Citizen,

Bulova, Mondaine, Michael Hill, Police,

Thomas Sabo, Danish Design, Jag,

Swiss Military and more...

Ilam Watchmakers Ltd

207 Waimairi Road

Christchurch 8041

Ph (03) 357-1002

Fax (03) 358-3004

Email: [email protected]

www.ilam-watchmakers.co.nz

We repair all brands of watches & clocks

sleepyastronaut · Nov 13, 2021

B Barnz
My grandfathers 1930s Longines that survived a swim in the upper Nile, my fathers Girard Perregaux he got for his 21st, the from new seamasters I own and those I have bought for my sons.
Look forget it. I’m an idiot. I will try to get a refund, I don’t like my chances …

Would love to see them, especially grandpa's Longines and dad's GP; please post pics.

You're not an idiot, people get scammed all the time. You've paid the "newbie tax," do what you can to return the watch, get a refund and/or be made whole, and move on. If you're still interested in pursuing vintage watches, make sure you read through "Learn How to Fish," and look carefully at every other example of the same reference before you buy, so you can see what's different between those and the one you're considering:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/learn-how-to-fish.52603/

JwRosenthal · Nov 13, 2021

sleepyastronaut
Would love to see them, especially grandpa's Longines and dad's GP; please post pics.

You're not an idiot, people get scammed all the time. You've paid the "newbie tax," do what you can to return the watch, get a refund and/or be made whole, and move on. If you're still interested in pursuing vintage watches, make sure you read through "Learn How to Fish," and look carefully at every other example of the same reference before you buy, so you can see what's different between those and the one you're considering:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/learn-how-to-fish.52603/

First vintage Omega I posted here was a highly polished redial that I thought was original and beautiful- it was a rude awakening. I knew other vintage brands, but Omega was new to me at the time. I have since moved that watch along and have honed my skills. Once you train your eyes to see the red flags it becomes muscle memory. It’s like that sense we all have that there is a predator nearby (which many of us ignore)….you just feel it.

Big Triangle thoughts? Franken or not?

omegaman

Barnz

omegaman

Shabbaz

Shabbaz

gemini4

Barnz

redpcar

Barnz

Redwes25

Lurk41

watchyouwant

JwRosenthal

JwRosenthal

watchlovr

omegaman

omegaman

Barnz

sleepyastronaut

JwRosenthal

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