Alchemy...be scared, be very scared

southtexas · May 20, 2019

Lurk41
You don't, but you will still use it on the road. You will not replicate some parts or swap the engine because you want to preserve the original parts.

I read several things here and for sure, replacing it with factory part is not an issue, as they are made by the same company that own the rights of this watch model. That is more problematic when the part is not produce anymore.

AFAIK, if you truly want to preserve the critical parts an still enjoy the watch instead of have it only for display, then replacing it by something that is clearly not original and signed by its author then it is ok. This is kind of the same spirit than Seiko mods. People modding their Seiko - or at least the example I saw of it - do not try to have a accurate copy another watch. It does not end with Tudor or Blancpain on the dial, and the changed part is clearly different than the original Seiko one. No one could be fooled and, no one is participating in it to fool others.

Now for the ones that tries to mimic the original, that is an issue. Say that it is OK because the main difference needs the insert to be removed to be seen? Sorry, that is not an option. If you do not have the real stuff just next to it or are not an expert of that model, you won't see the difference and this thread exists is proving it.

@watchknut : I understand that the goal when you bought this bezel is not to fool others but for your own enjoyment. Problem is: how can the seller knows that for sure? Does he make them only for dear and trustworthy friends? Did he find a magical way to know when a watch is put on sale with one of its bezel mounted on it, so he can intervene and prevent the sale?
If the answers for both are no, then he participates to the fake market even if - let's accept that for now - he does not want to. If he truly want to avoid that, he can put something on the front that is discreet, yet that cannot be missed. For example I had the stupid idea to buy a UG 287+dial and hands some time ago (bargain price), thinking that finding a matching case will be ok. Now that I know it is not that easy, I am thinking about contacting a (skilled) watchmaker to build a case that is in the same spirit than the Compax. But I will also ask to have it engraved between the lugs to ensure no one could ever sell it saying it is a 100% genuine UG (one day it will be sold no matter what, either because I want it, or because I am dead - let's hope not before Speedy Apollo 11 100th 😁).

So, your seller is contributing to the fake market. And despite the innocent goal that triggered this purchase, as one of his customer you are contributing to the fake market too. That is the biggest problem with fake (or "aftermarket" call them as you want): whatever your initial goal, you end supporting the whole market, therefore the organized crime behind it which is the same than the one behind human trafficking. This is why you should never buy a fake part, no matter your motive.

Deleted

Lurk41 · May 20, 2019

watchknut
@Lurk41 Anyone buying a GMT with a fuchsia bezel that doesn’t check the back is not an educated buyer...hence the reason the creator made the backs the totally wrong color.

Yes, probably he is not and eductated buyer. But, non educated buyer exists. Only a coule of days ago someone created a thread here about Hodinkee not even able to detect 2 different pusher types on the same Speedy. That is an enormous mistake and they are supposed to be educated and professional. So, how many wealthy amateurs will miss the color of the back of a fushia GMT?

watchknut
Organized crime? Human trafficking?

Yeah, don’t that this the case here...which is a watchmaker who happens to have sick CNC skills and is a wizard at anodizing.

I do not say he is part of an criminal organisation, just that what he does contributes to the growth of market that is handled by organized crime. It is a very small contribution, but still it is one.
Because he knows this model perfectly, he could think that having the wrong color at the back is sufficient and nobody will be to fool. But I fear it is not the case.
That is also why I asked to who he was selling. If he knows his customers and trust each of them to not resell a watch with that insert, then for me it is ok

sdre · May 20, 2019

Lurk41
So, your seller is contributing to the fake market. And despite the innocent goal that triggered this purchase, as one of his customer you are contributing to the fake market too. That is the biggest problem with fake (or "aftermarket" call them as you want): whatever your initial goal, you end supporting the whole market, therefore the organized crime behind it which is the same than the one behind human trafficking. This is why you should never buy a fake part, no matter your motive.

this is the part where I stopped reading. (well its close to the end anyways)

STANDY · May 20, 2019

watchknut
Nothing illegal and nothing dishonest with what he is doing or selling.

Actually it would be illegal if you asked a Rolex lawyer

So it was a guy that makes them purposely to not be correct, a skilled watchmaker in CNC

How many did he make ?

Just one for you for $250 ?
🍿

Edit: Can’t you tell us the watchmaker that makes fake parts. Not someone I want to use

t_swiss_t · May 20, 2019

STANDY
Actually it would be illegal if you asked a Rolex lawyer

So it was a guy that makes them purposely to not be correct, a skilled watchmaker in CNC

How many did he make ?

Just one for you for $250 ?
🍿

Edit: Can’t you tell us the watchmaker that makes fake parts. Not someone I want to use

Pretty easy to find... https://www.instagram.com/p/Bwh-BZiH74d/?igshid=jmzsyvc4uuep

This post is the one right before he offered up children for sale, @Lurk41 .

chows99 · May 20, 2019

What is there to show off when most people on the streets will never believe that a stupid worn aluminum insert that happen to have a fuschia color is worth $5,000 USD and more??

crl848 · May 21, 2019

I’m just p’d off I sold my fuschia bezel (with GMT master attached) just before everyone wanted one.

Lurk41 · May 21, 2019

@sdre @t_swiss_t you'd better look into how the fake business works before mocking people. Solid studies were published about this, reports were shot about it, some watch channels warned about this (TGV is one that comes in mind), Interpool representative talked about it... That is not fake news or some kind of conspiracy theory.

And yes, I maintain: as small your contribution to this market is, you are taking part in it. So if you want to preserve the original part, ask a skilled and close friend, that will only do it for you. The example of art collectors was given: do you really think that to do the replica, they - or museums as they also do this - just ask a random guy that shows sick skills on instagram?

Nobel Prize · May 21, 2019

watchknut

One of the above inserts is real and one is not.

Scary stuff. Luckily the guy that makes the aftemarket ones put a grey back on the insert, so no way of trying to pass off as real.

I bought to see how good it could be and I am amazed. I’ll wear the aftermarket one and keep the near perfect original one in the safe.

Makes you wonder about people without scruples...and what they can craft.

This is what confuses me. You complaint about the fake and say the makers are people without scruples, but then you see the benefit of a cheaper replica to wear instead of the real thing in order to preserve the original. It seems to me you should be thanking the makers. Specially if they're placing a gray back and not trying to sell as original.

t_swiss_t · May 21, 2019

Lurk41
@sdre @t_swiss_t you'd better look into how the fake business works before mocking people. Solid studies were published about this, reports were shot about it, some watch channels warned about this (TGV is one that comes in mind), Interpool representative talked about it... That is not fake news or some kind of conspiracy theory.

And yes, I maintain: as small your contribution to this market is, you are taking part in it. So if you want to preserve the original part, ask a skilled and close friend, that will only do it for you. The example of art collectors was given: do you really think that to do the replica, they - or museums as they also do this - just ask a random guy that shows sick skills on instagram?

Wholly disagree. You’re painting with a broad brush to say that because some of it is connected with other nefarious things, it all must be. That like saying, because some forms of gambling/bookies are associated with organized crime, it all must be and I’m taking part in it by taking out a bet at the Kentucky Derby.

Oh, and just to note, I haven’t and don’t plan on buying any of these parts, I just don’t have an issue with them if they’re made with the correct intention and with an easy and widely known tell, such as these.

Seems like we’re socked in to our positions so I don’t know if there’s a point to continuing the thread.

sxl2004 · May 21, 2019

For me it comes down to a simple point:
It is your Watch and you can do with it whatever you want (as long as it is not intended to deceive people).

We do not have to like it nor should we impose our rules on other people.
Please do not forget: It is all about fun.

Off my soapbox.

watchknut · May 21, 2019

Nobel Prize
It seems to me you should be thanking the makers. Specially if they're placing a gray back and not trying to sell as original.

That is exactly what I stated. The reason I bought is that there is no way to pass it off as real...it might as well have FAKE etched on the back because of the color.

jumpingsecond · May 21, 2019

sxl2004
For me it comes down to a simple point:
It is your Watch and you can do with it whatever you want (as long as it is not intended to deceive people).

We do not have to like it nor should we impose our rules on other people.
Please do not forget: It is all about fun.

Off my soapbox.

You beat me to this point. Who cares what anyone else thinks. Enjoy your watch as you see fit. And thx for sharing what's out there it's good to know.

STANDY · May 21, 2019

watchknut
That is exactly what I stated. The reason I bought is that there is no way to pass it off as real...it might as well have FAKE etched on the back because of the color.

So the fake Speedmaster bezels have a signature miss placed dot over 140 so are they OK now.

Wrestling with pigs 😗

All we are saying is the more of these float about, someone will try to pass one off to a un savvy buyer.

Noles_88 · May 21, 2019

Thanks Matt for showing us this. Very informative. I think people as usual here miss the point. You were just trying to show us. Hey be careful out there if someone is selling one of these inserts. Look at this. Btw I bought one to preserve my bezel.

Lurk41 · May 21, 2019

t_swiss_t
Wholly disagree. You’re painting with a broad brush to say that because some of it is connected with other nefarious things, it all must be. That like saying, because some forms of gambling/bookies are associated with organized crime, it all must be and I’m taking part in it by taking out a bet at the Kentucky Derby.

Gambling is a legitimate and monitored business. Fake is not.

Honestly, if you want to support authorizing fake sellers and bring some control to them to ensure they are not related to organized crime, and by doing that fight more efficiently against it, then be my guest. It worked with alcohol nearly 90 years ago, it is currently working with weed, and on the contrary what France did with taxes on cigarettes brought back contraband... So authorize and control, that could be a solution against what happen behind the curtains. But as long this regulation does not exist, you are taking part in it.

watchknut · May 21, 2019

STANDY
So the fake Speedmaster bezels have a signature miss placed dot over 140 so are they OK now.

Wrestling with pigs 😗

All we are saying is the more of these float about, someone will try to pass one off to a un savvy buyer.

I've said nothing about the Speedy bezels - and this thread was about these specific 1675 inserts and not any other parts out there.

Unlike a Speedy bezel, a 1675 bezel has a unique color anodized on the back, and correct fuchsia inserts have a pink color. The fact that these inserts have no pink color means that they cannot be genuine.

It is open and shut, and very basic.

I've spent thousands of hours in this hobby - devouring any and all content that makes me a better collector and source of information to my friends around the globe...and I learn something new everyday, as was the case with this bezel, and hence why I shared.

If some buyer out there does not have the knowledge to know that a fuchsia insert should have a fuchsia back, then that is their fault. It seems like the whole "everyone deserves a trophy" mentality has come into the watch world - I am much more bothered by shady dealers ripping off uneducated buyers than I am a guy making a part that anyone who own a 1675 knows is fake based on a simple observation.

At the end of the day, this thread has been informative, and many have learned about the importance of details when it comes to the vintage watch world. The more value these watches get, coupled with enhancements in technology/manufacturing, the more opportunity there will be for incredible fakes to be made.

Unfortunately we are getting close to parity between the real and fake, and when that happens, you have to wonder about how you value the original. This bezel insert, while not exactly a perfect example, begs the question...given the choice between the 2, aesthetically speaking, which one would you choose, one is $250 and the other is $4,500?

Lurk41 · May 21, 2019

As you can expect I would not agree with the whole post, but, I could not agree more with your last 2 § 👍

Flintlock · May 21, 2019

Did I miss the part where the fake is revealed? To me the bottom one has cleaner edges on the printing so I'll vote #2.

t_swiss_t · May 21, 2019

I’d like to see different colors entirely - green and blue, all red, maybe white with black numerals.

Alchemy...be scared, be very scared

southtexas

Lurk41

sdre

STANDY

t_swiss_t

chows99

crl848

Lurk41

Nobel Prize

t_swiss_t

sxl2004

watchknut

jumpingsecond

STANDY

Noles_88

Lurk41

watchknut

Lurk41

Flintlock

t_swiss_t

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