Will this be my VERY FIRST vintage Watch ??

VintageYouWant · Apr 26, 2022

Hello everyone

I'm Alex, French watch enthusiast. New on this forum and looking for three things on this lovely Parisian morning : thoughts, advice and guidance.

No I'm not looking for a mentor, but I just wanted to share with you the next purchase i wanna make on the watch industry.

Owner of a couple of watches (5 to be correct) including the very nice IWC 3714 and Longines LD Bronze (), my two favorite pieces, i am now looking at buying my VERY FIRST vintage piece.

I was first looking at some SM300 (no watchco, real vintage ones), loving the history and espacially the design of that watch. but the prices seemed a bit high for my budget. Well...way to high !

And then after months of searching et discovering new brands, I fell onto the Certina DS PH200m (ref 5801.117). It’s now all I can't think about. It make me think a lot about the SM300 but I think the proportions are even better. Also the story of that brand that I discovered through a great YouTube channel (brave beaters ) really appeals to me. A quality yet rather descreet brand.

Apart from all the design specs that I love, 41mm really is my sweet spot for my 18cm wrist

I bought a year ago the reissue of that watch (42.8mm version) but TBH I want to OG one !

Therefore I am joining this Forum of experts to ask you a few questions and start a discussion about this wonderful watch :

What are you thought about this watch ? Do you think it would make a good first vintage purchase ?
Will it increase in value ? It's REALLY not what im looking for in buying that watch...but always good to know
Let's talk search and prices : at the moment I've only found two offers, both on Cr24. 3800 and 4200€ (I'll let you do the dollar conversion😉. The 4200 one seems to be w box and paper. Both look rather good I think (see pics below). The 3800 might be in a better shape (bezel espacially) but no Box & papers, and the 4200 is a professionnal which is alway reassuring.
Is that a fair price ? Are there place, forums or such where I should be looking or asking ?
Is there a chance It’s a fake or a Franken ?
TBH the one thing a dislike about those two is the lack of the ORIGINAL BRACELET....Pic below too. And I've also searched for the bracelet only I could'nt find any. Anyway i could alway put it on a Nato or leather it would look amazing too, while I'd keep searching for that bracelet.

Well I guess now you know me a bit better through my itch of a new watch.

Being my very first Vintage purchase I'm really afraid of making mistakes

Thanks a lot for reading my post and to you all a good day ✌️

Sorry if there's any misspells or grammar errors

Alex

Watch #1 (4200€, w Box and Paper)

Watch #2 (3800€)

The Original Bracelet

Fallout Boy · Apr 26, 2022

Hi Alex, and : welcome 😀

I am not in Certinas but fist stage and my advice is: information, information and information. You need some (a lot) experience to (first) judge the pictures of the watches, you want to buy. google ist therefor you friend!

I love the style of these DS. comme: déesse 😁 Take e.g. a look at the lume of no. 2. IMO relumed -probably.

box , bracelet papers are add-ons, but the original condition of dial, hand and case is the goal. There is a brilliant thread in this forum " Learn how to fish"

https://omegaforums.net/threads/learn-how-to-fish.52603/

(I own a big triangle SM 300 with a broken bezel (twice): it doesn t bother me at all.)

Greetings from southern France!
Jo

Vitezi · Apr 26, 2022

Calling @ConElPueblo for an opinion 😀

VintageYouWant · Apr 26, 2022

Fallout Boy
Hi Alex, and : welcome 😀

I am not in Certinas but fist stage and my advice is: information, information and information. You need some (a lot) experience to (first) judge the pictures of the watches, you want to buy. google ist therefor you friend!

I love the style of these DS. comme: déesse 😁 Take e.g. a look at the lume of no. 2. IMO relumed -probably.

box , bracelet papers are add-ons, but the original condition of dial, hand and case is the goal. There is a brilliant thread in this forum " Learn how to fish"

https://omegaforums.net/threads/learn-how-to-fish.52603/

(I own a big triangle SM 300 with a broken bezel (twice): it doesn t bother me at all.)

Greetings from southern France!
Jo

Great Content thanks !

ConElPueblo · Apr 26, 2022

Hi Alex.

PH200Ms are wonderful watches. The mechanics are robust and movement parts are easy to source. It is extremely important to be aware of the condition of the cosmetics and case though as dial, bezel and case are not shared with other models and are fairly hard to source.

Of the two you show here, I vastly prefer the second one, though it would need to either have the hands swapped (NOS ones surface from time to time) or have them relumed and have the crown changed for a correct one. I think the asking price is fairly ambitious, but that's the dealer game for you. If you were set on spending +€3k on one, I would set aside that money and play the waiting game - monitor auction houses, eBay and two or three select fora to find one that is appealing or set up a WTB on a forum. These rarely go for this amount and when they do, they are in better shape than these.

On frankens: there is no way to tell if the movement has been swapped for a different one than the original as they don't use serial numbers. The rest of the parts are more or less unique to the model.

A word on the bracelet - you should be very aware that the end links for the PH200M is different from the ones used on the regular DS. It takes a trained eye to spot the correct ones...

EDIT: wait, I can't remember if the part of the end links is correct now. Is it the PH500M that has different end links? 😕

VintageYouWant · Apr 26, 2022

Thank you so much ! great advice !
Yeah i guess i'll play the waiting game and wait for that great piece to show up.

A few questions though :
- You say one should "relume or replace the hands" >> won't it make it "not a true vintage piece" ? I know my knowledge of vintage is limited, but won't a NOS hands look "too new" on this old watch ?? Again sorry for my lack of knowledge and if you guyz have some content for me to read to increase my knowleade of vintagen, NOS, franken, etc...so as to become a true connaisseur...i'd be happy to 😉
- Change the crown you say : is it not the original one ?

thx

Fallout Boy · Apr 26, 2022

Alex, I often saw (before purchase) on Rolex 5513, vintage EX2 and SM 300 e.g. extreme differences in the lume of hands compared to the dial. Even if the price is low, I would not buy in case of any doubt. NOS hands ..... hm.... I think, they might "disrupt" the whole dial. You will always stare at this difference.

Take a breath and wait for the good catch!

ATB

savka · Apr 26, 2022

Frenchdude87
Thank you so much ! great advice !
- You say one should "relume or replace the hands" >> won't it make it "not a true vintage piece" ? I know my knowledge of vintage is limited, but won't a NOS hands look "too new" on this old watch ??

As with everything, it really comes down to personal preference. Original, undisturbed hands are generally most sought after by collectors. However, different people have different preferences about the watches they buy and wear -- you'll see that again and again on these forums in discussion over dial patina, case polishing, etc. The important thing, as was already mentioned, is that you do as much research as possible before buying anything so that you can make an informed purchase that works best for you.

VintageYouWant · Apr 26, 2022

All right thank you guys so much.
I'm glad I joined this forum, will try to become more of an expert through thorough reading and learning more about the vintage market

VintageYouWant · Apr 26, 2022

One last thing : what are the best auction houses to put alerts to according to you ?

Waltesefalcon · Apr 26, 2022

Frenchdude87
A few questions though :
- You say one should "relume or replace the hands" >> won't it make it "not a true vintage piece" ? I know my knowledge of vintage is limited, but won't a NOS hands look "too new" on this old watch ?? Again sorry for my lack of knowledge and if you guyz have some content for me to read to increase my knowleade of vintagen, NOS, franken, etc...so as to become a true connaisseur...i'd be happy to 😉

thx

The hands on that second example are badly relumed, so it's already lost its originality. Having them properly relumed or replaced with correct hands will only improve the watch.

mzzleather · Apr 26, 2022

Frenchdude87
One last thing : what are the best auction houses to put alerts to according to you ?

/
phillips, sotheby's, antiquorum and christie's. pretty good service and experience overall, their apps leave much to be desired though. antiquorum in particular could really invest in one. would grow their sale audience tons in this digital age.

VintageYouWant · Apr 26, 2022

ConElPueblo
Hi Alex.

PH200Ms are wonderful watches. The mechanics are robust and movement parts are easy to source. It is extremely important to be aware of the condition of the cosmetics and case though as dial, bezel and case are not shared with other models and are fairly hard to source.

Of the two you show here, I vastly prefer the second one, though it would need to either have the hands swapped (NOS ones surface from time to time) or have them relumed and have the crown changed for a correct one. I think the asking price is fairly ambitious, but that's the dealer game for you. If you were set on spending +€3k on one, I would set aside that money and play the waiting game - monitor auction houses, eBay and two or three select fora to find one that is appealing or set up a WTB on a forum. These rarely go for this amount and when they do, they are in better shape than these.

On frankens: there is no way to tell if the movement has been swapped for a different one than the original as they don't use serial numbers. The rest of the parts are more or less unique to the model.

A word on the bracelet - you should be very aware that the end links for the PH200M is different from the ones used on the regular DS. It takes a trained eye to spot the correct ones...

EDIT: wait, I can't remember if the part of the end links is correct now. Is it the PH500M that has different end links? 😕

After further investigation it does seem that both sellers have swapped (or lost) the original crown...that's a bummer !

Also I think original crowns might be easier to find than hands...which I think are easier to relume than to replace.
Will try to negociate the price if I can spot a new crown on the market, otherwise...waiting game it is
many thanks @ConElPueblo for all the precious advice.

Will keep you aware if anything changes !

VintageYouWant · Apr 28, 2022

After some research I've talked to a great guy on instagram...

He owns something between 5 and 10 DS ph200m (none for sales fo course ^^)
All of them Mint condition, box and paper, and all with the genuine bracelet !! Simply mind blowing

I'de love to screenshot and send you some pics from hos Instagramn but I don't know if that's somethong frowned upon by the forum and the owner of the watches or not...but you'll be crazy if you saw the condition of the watches

VintageYouWant · Apr 28, 2022

Hello again,

I've been scavenging the internet more and more.
The issue of the bracelet is really important to me.

After a few investigation i've found this certina Bracelet : it seems to NOT be the genuire ph200m one.
Thought it's pretty attractive and would look good on a ph200

Questions to the expert @ConElPueblo and everyone that can help :
- is it a Certina original ? On which model was this bracelet ?
- would it fit a ph200 ? I've heard matching bracelet with the ph200 is a nightmare
- Last : this one is a Gay Frere. Is the genuine one also a Gay Frere ? so i can keep searching for the right bracelet.

Many Thanks !

VintageYouWant · Apr 28, 2022

better with pictures

ConElPueblo · Apr 28, 2022

Frenchdude87
Hello again,

I've been scavenging the internet more and more.
The issue of the bracelet is really important to me.

After a few investigation i've found this certina Bracelet : it seems to NOT be the genuire ph200m one.
Thought it's pretty attractive and would look good on a ph200

Questions to the expert @ConElPueblo and everyone that can help :
- is it a Certina original ? On which model was this bracelet ?
- would it fit a ph200 ? I've heard matching bracelet with the ph200 is a nightmare
- Last : this one is a Gay Frere. Is the genuine one also a Gay Frere ? so i can keep searching for the right bracelet.

Many Thanks !

It's a GF bracelet which is correct for the earlier models, not the PH200M. The one for the PH200M hasn't got a maker's mark and is quite different in feel. It is also a lot cheaper than a GF model in comparable condition. I bought one is excellent condition recently for €200 which is about half of what a similar GF would cost - when you can find one.

alane24 · Apr 28, 2022

Hi Alex,

What a lovely choice for your first vintage watch––more interesting than the SM300 imo. I cannot speak to Certina directly, but can to vintage collecting. I'll keep it high level.

1. Be patient. Sometimes the thrill of finding something can overwhelm your ability to be patient, don't feel obligated to buy the first one you see. But, on the other hand, know that there are other people out there looking for the same piece. So you might have to make a decision.

2. Research. While you're looking (aka waiting) do your research. Learn as much as possible about this reference so that when one comes available you can quickly determine originality and/or if anything has been done to it.

3. Get some help. There are many dealers that can help you source...I would take advantage of them because these watches aren't exactly common, so hoping to find one on a forum might leave you waiting a very long time.

4. Just ask. I have sent messages to people asking them if they would ever part with their watch. It's ok, and you never know what could happen.

Hope this helps, good luck and enjoy the journey. Vintage watches (of all price points) are addicting.

Tony

P.S. Watches that come with boxes, papers and other point of purchase goodies are fun, but remember, you cannot wear a box. IMO, the condition of the watch far exceeds all of the accessories it may come with.

Syrte · Apr 28, 2022

Welcome Alex to the forum,

If seeking out help from a dealer I would only go to someone recommended by this forum.

We’ve seen too many supposedly reputable professionals take advantage of unsuspecting newbies— someone here even described being fleeced by someone he called and considered a friend.
Thankfully there are honest dealers and there are several who frequent this forum, but one as with everything relating to vintage watches, utmost caution is essential.

VintageYouWant · Apr 29, 2022

Hey guys,

thanks so much for you advice !

I'm usually quite an impatient man , but TBH after talking to you guys ands doing my homework, i'm much more excited now about the hunt of that perfect piece than i am about simply buying it.

I'm really getting into that part of the buying process ! I've been thinking a lot and i won't be buying any of those two ph200 i showed you earlier.

The thrill of getting what i REALLY want is stronger now : I know that I want a nice ph200 (at a reasonable price of course, even though the "bargain" is really not what i'm looking for), and i really just want it WITH that genuine bracelet that really makes a difference to me (i keep looking at it thinking how amazing it is !)

So i'll keep looking for that perfect watch to show up, talk to people to learn more about it, see if they've heard of people willing to sell their watch, etc. I realise now social media is amazing for that. Just talked to 2 people on IG who taught me a lot about that watch, even one told me he knew a guy who just sold his ph200 a few month back...maybe next time ^^

Anyway i think i'll also be searching for that" bracelet only", having seen that it's even harder to find than the actual watch.

If you ever heard of such a piece for sale, i'd happy to hear about it of course 😀

It really is the first time i've been thinking about buying a vintage...I really don't regret it, but i realise i've been looking at it at first the wrong way (the "not vintage watch way") and i'm so glad i went here and asked for advice ! I'm just afraid of getting hooked to that vintage hunt thrill

I'll keep you posted and ask for advice if needed !

Alex

Will this be my VERY FIRST vintage Watch ??

VintageYouWant

Fallout Boy

Vitezi

VintageYouWant

ConElPueblo

VintageYouWant

Fallout Boy

savka

VintageYouWant

VintageYouWant

Waltesefalcon

mzzleather

VintageYouWant

VintageYouWant

VintageYouWant

VintageYouWant

ConElPueblo

alane24

Syrte

VintageYouWant

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