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richardew
·LOL. My bad.
Speedmaster calibers 321 vs 861 vs 1861
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fskywalker
·Other than the more beautiful finishing on the 1863 due to the see through case back on the watches that use it, is there any mechanical / reliability improvement on the 1863 over the 1861? I read some people say the metal brake on the 1863 is an improvement over its nylon / plastic counterpart in the 1861, while others said the metal one in 1863 wears down more over time and require oiling whereas the nylon break in the 1861 movement does not.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerThere's no difference really. Theories are great, but in practice the brake is rarely replaced, no matter what the material is.
Cheers, Al
Cheers, Al
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Stewart H
·Al. Can you put the delrin brake through the cleaning machine? I have avoided doing so thus far.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerAl. Can you put the delrin brake through the cleaning machine? I have avoided doing so thus far.
I guess technically it depends on the cleaning solutions you use, but most are solvent based, and it's not recommended to put anything from a movement that is made of plastic in those solutions. So the brake from the 1861 etc., the hour recorder brake and friction spring from a 7750, the stop lever in a Cal. 1010 series, etc.
Cheers, Al
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Stewart H
·Thanks Al.... and presumably the train bridge from a 1040.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerSo the brake from the 1861 etc., the hour recorder brake and friction spring from a 7750, the stop lever in a Cal. 1010 series, etc.
Cheers, Al
Note the "etc." There are many plastic parts in many movements that should not be cleaned. If you want me to list all the parts from a Lemania 5100 that should not be cleaned, well I don't have time for that! 😉
Cheers, Al
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Stewart H
·The only reason I mentioned that bridge is that I am struggling to see the purpose of the delrin insert. I understand that it effectively locks the differential, but I fail to see how this interacts with the winding mechanism.
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seamasterpro
·Hi! I was reading some of your feedback relating the 321. 861 movements. I was further wondering what is more less the premium the 321 watches sale for? Or rather, what is a "fair" price for a 861 and 321 in very good condition? Thanks for all your help!!!!
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richardew
·You should take at look at http://speedmaster101.com/. The website is not at 100% right now but it's coming back. As far as a "fair" price for an c861 or a c321, what is a fair price for a Chevrolet? The c321 speedmasters were made for ~ 10 years. The c861s maybe 30 years, the c1861s more than 25 years. The earliest speedys in good condition with all original parts go for $50,000+, whereas a mid 80s c861 in good condition could be procured in the $2000-$2500 range. It's all supply and demand.
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seamasterpro
·Yeah, i know its a tough call to give an accurate estimate. But I figured I would ask anyway. Thanks for the help!
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richardew
·speedmaster101 has some price guides. That should allow you to zero in on a watch that fits your budget, then it's all about hunting one down. You should allow $500-$1000 to put into the watch once you acquire it. I always start out getting my vintage pieces serviced when I first get them, then I can wear them and not have to worry about damaging them from lack of service, failing seals, etc.
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seamasterpro
·Yup on it now! great stuff. hope they are fully back in their feet soon!
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twoweeled
·Who has had trouble getting parts or service for a c321? I haven't. Omega will service the c321 and it is more expensive and has to be done in Bienne. I get mine done locally and it costs exactly the same to service a c321 as a c861. I haven't had any issues getting parts either: crowns, pushers, crystals, gaskets, mainspring. I wear them regularly. They are all robust movements/watches that have passed the NASA tests. The challenge in collecting/owning c321 speedys is in finding ones that have all or most of the original parts that differ from modern replacements: bezels, hands, dial.
Here's an c864. It's a chronometer version of the c861
Here's some shots of the c321:
You also state: haven't had any issues getting parts either: crowns, pushers, crystals, gaskets, mainspring. I wear them regularly. They are all robust movements/watches that have passed the NASA tests. Have you replaced all this parts on your watch? Your only watch?
thank you
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerI'm not sure if I understand correctly. Above you stated, you get yours done locally and it costs exactly the same to service a c321 as a c861. Sentence before that says, It's more expensive and has to be done in Beinne? Sounds more expensive.
You also state: haven't had any issues getting parts either: crowns, pushers, crystals, gaskets, mainspring. I wear them regularly. They are all robust movements/watches that have passed the NASA tests. Have you replaced all this parts on your watch? Your only watch?
thank you
If you go through Omega, they have to be done at Bienne, and the price is higher than with an 861 or 1861. If you go with an independent, then you will pay whatever they feel it's worth for their time. Might be the same as an 861, or could be more.
With regards to parts, the parts listed above (with the exception of the mainspring) are case parts, and these are not a problem to get - they are all readily available from Omega, and I buy them frequently. To say, based on those parts he listed, that there are no issues getting parts for a Cal. 321 is very misleading. Although many movement parts are available through Omega to anyone with an account, a lot of critical parts are not as Omega chooses to withhold them. So if you need an escape wheel, pallet fork, balance complete, some chronograph springs, various plates or bridges, etc. then you are out of luck. You will have to rely on the open market and hope you can find these parts at a reasonable price, if at all.
Now not every watch needs a part that can't be obtained easily, in fact it's sort of rare that they are needed. However because you have had a 321 repaired, replaced a few case parts, and didn't need anything that was discontinued obviously does not mean every part for the watch is easy to get...
Cheers, Al
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twoweeled
·If you go through Omega, they have to be done at Bienne, and the price is higher than with an 861 or 1861. If you go with an independent, then you will pay whatever they feel it's worth for their time. Might be the same as an 861, or could be more.
With regards to parts, the parts listed above (with the exception of the mainspring) are case parts, and these are not a problem to get - they are all readily available from Omega, and I buy them frequently. To say, based on those parts he listed, that there are no issues getting parts for a Cal. 321 is very misleading. Although many movement parts are available through Omega to anyone with an account, a lot of critical parts are not as Omega chooses to withhold them. So if you need an escape wheel, pallet fork, balance complete, some chronograph springs, various plates or bridges, etc. then you are out of luck. You will have to rely on the open market and hope you can find these parts at a reasonable price, if at all.
Now not every watch needs a part that can't be obtained easily, in fact it's sort of rare that they are needed. However because you have had a 321 repaired, replaced a few case parts, and didn't need anything that was discontinued obviously does not mean every part for the watch is easy to get...
Cheers, Al
thank you very much for that information. I've recently caught the watch bug and looking for another watch. Not a daily wearer, maybe once a week at most. I have a Hamilton that I wear often and a Submariner LV that I rarely wear. Was headed toward a planet ocean 42mm because of 7" wrist size and water adaptability. Seen a pre owned Speedy with the 1861 movement and started considering it. Realizing it could be almost 20 years old, I wonder how how much maintenance is coming my way. Even if I purchase new, I wonder about dependability. That is how I came to look into the 1861 movement. I was fairly focused on an 8500 movement (or 9300 movement) because of dependability. I fully appreciate your insight and information. Very helpful.
thank you,
Eddie
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SpikiSpikester
··@ ΩFA 20 year old 861/1861 movement could still easily live longer than you if serviced appropriately. Most 90s Speedmasters are barely into their adolescence as functioning watches & getting them serviced isn't a challenge. Just get some movement pics to make sure you aren't buying one that has been insanely abused.
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richardew
·Sentence before that says, It's more expensive and has to be done in Beinne?
Now not every watch needs a part that can't be obtained easily, in fact it's sort of rare that they are needed.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerAs far as parts are concerned, I only know what Manuel told me - that he didn't have any issues getting c321 parts.
Is that Manuel Yazijian? If so, that might explain a lot...
There is a urban legend of sorts that c321s can't be serviced easily and that they are fragile. I find them as robust as any of the speedmaster movements and wear a c321 quite regularly.
I don't think I have ever seen anyone say the movement is more difficult to service, or is more fragile in any significant way. There isn't a lot of difference between servicing a 321 and an 861 really. The issues are more to do with the condition of the movement, than the technical aspects of it. 321's do take a bit longer in my experience, because in general they are in worse condition, and need more done to them - but this is simply time, not complexity.
And I'll say it again...the issues with the 321 are primarily related to parts access. This is what would make them more difficult to service, not because they are terribly complex, because for a watchmaker it's a pretty simple movement. And again, the parts you have listed to make the argument over and over that there isn't a parts issue are all parts that anyone with an account can buy. I can also buy mainspring, pushers, crystals, seals, crowns...but as I said above, escape wheels, pallet forks, center wheels, and many other movement parts are just not available for purchase through Omega.
I service these all the time, so I know they can be done, even when these parts that Omega does not provide are needed, I have been able to find them. But anyone who has these parts knows that they are rare, and charges an arm and a leg for them.
Cheers, Al
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Prange
·Excellent. Thanks for the info and insight.
