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DirtyDozen12
·Yes. It is not in great condition, but for purposes of comparing the SAS logo, it should prove useful.
I'll try to swing by my dealer friend's shop tomorrow.
SAS Gold Polerouter - Tore Nilert
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberYes. Why, suspect?
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberNot etched, eh?
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DirtyDozen12
·Oh, I was just curious.
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberI'll take a close look and some photos. Can't hurt to have another one for comparison.
It will be next week, though, as my friend is off to Munich for the watch fair this weekend.
It will be next week, though, as my friend is off to Munich for the watch fair this weekend.
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Mazoue
·There have now been several different types of Polerouter or Polarouter that have a connection with SAS that have surfaced. I know of the following:
- the steel white dialled 20217-6 Polarouters with printed dial (I'm not sure how many are known but I've seen more than one example)
- the gold Polarouter De Luxe with engraved dial
- my steel black dialled 20217-4 Polarouter with printed dial
- @Lucas believes he has the same dial in a gold case
- my gold Polerouter with engraved dial
- the gold Polerouter with engraved dial belonging to @Dre
I understand that the white dialled Polarouters were given to staff on the November 1954 Helge Viking flight on arrival at Los Angeles. What about staff on the Leif Viking, which flew at the same time on the same route in the opposite direction from Los Angeles to Copenhagen?
I seem to recall a theory that the gold Polarouter De Luxes were given to the three Prime Ministers on the Helge Viking. Do we know that for a fact?
The last two watches in the list above are clearly later and have no connection with the 1954 flights. But they do both have a connection with the United States. I strongly suspect that there was an ongoing relationship between the two companies and a tradition in the US of awarding a gold UG to long serving senior staff. The watch belonging to @Dre probably dates to no more than 5 years later than mine.
But without research we are all guessing.
- the steel white dialled 20217-6 Polarouters with printed dial (I'm not sure how many are known but I've seen more than one example)
- the gold Polarouter De Luxe with engraved dial
- my steel black dialled 20217-4 Polarouter with printed dial
- @Lucas believes he has the same dial in a gold case
- my gold Polerouter with engraved dial
- the gold Polerouter with engraved dial belonging to @Dre
I understand that the white dialled Polarouters were given to staff on the November 1954 Helge Viking flight on arrival at Los Angeles. What about staff on the Leif Viking, which flew at the same time on the same route in the opposite direction from Los Angeles to Copenhagen?
I seem to recall a theory that the gold Polarouter De Luxes were given to the three Prime Ministers on the Helge Viking. Do we know that for a fact?
The last two watches in the list above are clearly later and have no connection with the 1954 flights. But they do both have a connection with the United States. I strongly suspect that there was an ongoing relationship between the two companies and a tradition in the US of awarding a gold UG to long serving senior staff. The watch belonging to @Dre probably dates to no more than 5 years later than mine.
But without research we are all guessing.
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Florent
·Nice, but the UG font from much later than I would expect for a SAS. The applied U is also not in line with the font as I would have expected a printed U in a cartuce with that font. It does not work for me ...
That font was used in mi to late 60's and I would not expect to see it on a late 50s early 60s SAS ...
But I could be wrong 😡 ...
+1
Looks fake to me ...
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Mazoue
·Because?
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Mazoue
·It maybe high magnification but the SAS logos in the 60s dials, were made using a chemical etching process not a mechanical process. Etching gives a far superior finish. therefore I would not expect to see such irregularities and inconsistencies that we see. It looks like logo has been machined on ...
When you say that "the SAS logos in the 60s dials, were made using a chemical etching process", to which watches were you referring?
I am only aware of two engraved SAS dials. A 1950s Polarouter De Luxe and the 1960's Polerouter belonging to @Dre . I have not personally seen a close-up of that dial. Do you know that it was chemically etched?
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gatorcpa
··ΩF InvestiGatorThe printing on the dial looks to be from the late 1960's, possibly up to 1970.
A little Google research shows that Mr. Nilert was working in the US for SAS until 1970:
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=VEST19700521.2.10
(Not so good) translation of the above from Google Translate:
The watch itself seems to be somewhat inconsistent:
1. Printing on dial from late 1960's to 1970's, but the "U" logo is from the early to mid-1960's. Could it have been redialled?
2. Style of case is from the mid-1950's to mid-1960's. Serial number is from 1964-65, so that might be OK.
3. I've never seen black dauphin-style hands on a Polerouter before. However, there is a first time for everything.
4. Are the production dates for the movement (not shown here) consistent with the production dates of the case? Of the dial?
5. The dates look to be engraved in an American style. The few Swedish commemorative engravings that I've seen have been much more elaborate than this. But why a 1961 date on a watch that could have been made later than that.
To be fair, I haven't seen enough evidence either way to have an opinion on this watch. It is possible that it was simply old stock from the US importer purchased by SAS in the late 1960's. On the other hand, these inconsistencies trouble me.
In other words, my Spidey senses are tingling on this one.
gatorcpa
A little Google research shows that Mr. Nilert was working in the US for SAS until 1970:
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=VEST19700521.2.10
(Not so good) translation of the above from Google Translate:
Tore Nilert moves to Stockholm Has represented SAS in America in 29 years
Tore Nilert, president of Scandinavian Airlines System, Inc. in North America, has been appointed Vice President at SAS's main office in Stockholm on May 1, with the task of being a special adviser to Acting Director Knud Hagerup. Nilert has been in America since 1!) 41 and has been linked to SAS since its inception in 1946, B & B Borjap as its manager. During this time, the airline grew to fly 880 passengers the first & right to 180,000 in 1969. The first year's sales were $ 251,000, 1969 $ 62 million. With Nilert, the last person lane melian breaks the early North Atlantic's traffic to last day's jet era.
Mr. Nilert bar since the Frenchman Henri Lesieur retired was the foreign affiliate's dean in the United States. He is decorated by Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland, honors a honorary doctorate in law and issued in 1965 to "man of the aristocracy" of the great New York Swedish colony. He is also "Honor's son of Norway", the only Swedish honors honored. 'IT SHADOWER TORA TEJE bar was deceased 77 years old. She was one of Sweden's leading ski actors and active at the Drama, as well as in film and radio. In 1957, she got the drama O'Neill scholarship.
tori: h. nilert
The watch itself seems to be somewhat inconsistent:
1. Printing on dial from late 1960's to 1970's, but the "U" logo is from the early to mid-1960's. Could it have been redialled?
2. Style of case is from the mid-1950's to mid-1960's. Serial number is from 1964-65, so that might be OK.
3. I've never seen black dauphin-style hands on a Polerouter before. However, there is a first time for everything.
4. Are the production dates for the movement (not shown here) consistent with the production dates of the case? Of the dial?
5. The dates look to be engraved in an American style. The few Swedish commemorative engravings that I've seen have been much more elaborate than this. But why a 1961 date on a watch that could have been made later than that.
To be fair, I haven't seen enough evidence either way to have an opinion on this watch. It is possible that it was simply old stock from the US importer purchased by SAS in the late 1960's. On the other hand, these inconsistencies trouble me.
In other words, my Spidey senses are tingling on this one.
gatorcpa
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Mazoue
·Thanks for this insightful response.
I agree that there are inconsistencies and that I don't yet have all of the answers. I will take a closer look at the movement over the next few days and hopefully some further research also pays dividends.
The fact that you think the engraving is in an American style, I actually find very encouraging given that Tore Nilert was head of SAS in North America from 1941 onwards. The only other SAS Polerouter that we know of from the 1960s (that which belongs to @Dre) is also thought to have been a watch ordered for an SAS senior executive in the US.
I agree that there are inconsistencies and that I don't yet have all of the answers. I will take a closer look at the movement over the next few days and hopefully some further research also pays dividends.
The fact that you think the engraving is in an American style, I actually find very encouraging given that Tore Nilert was head of SAS in North America from 1941 onwards. The only other SAS Polerouter that we know of from the 1960s (that which belongs to @Dre) is also thought to have been a watch ordered for an SAS senior executive in the US.
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gatorcpa
··ΩF InvestiGatorThe fact that you think the engraving is in an American style, I actually find very encouraging given that Tore Nilert was head of SAS in North America from 1941 onwards. The only other SAS Polerouter that we know of from the 1960s (that which belongs to @Dre) is also thought to have been a watch ordered for an SAS senior executive in the US.
With Dre's watch, the lettering is consistent with the "U" logo and the later case reference.
Yours? I don't know.
gatorcpa
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Mazoue
·Look at the old, faint, spiral polish. That was not a factory polish - it was done later. Now, the inscription is engraved on top of the polish - in other words later. That is an obvious problem.
Furthermore, look at the edges of the engraved letters. They are too pronounced. The case back shows wear, and over many years, those edges, or ridges, should be worn down.
Here's another gold polerouter with case reference 169101 with the same finish to the case back. I appreciate that this watch may also have had the same type of polish but are you sure this was not the original finish? What would the original finish have been? Looking under a loupe, I'm not sure whether the case reference and serial numbers were even applied before that finish
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Dre
·Here are the most close-up photos that I have for my dial as a comparison,
Interesting to see the engraving on the caseback, it's the only SAS watch that actually has an engraving on the caseback!
Interesting to see the engraving on the caseback, it's the only SAS watch that actually has an engraving on the caseback!
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberHere's another gold polerouter with case reference 169101 with the same finish to the case back. I appreciate that this watch may also have had the same type of polish but are you sure this was not the original finish? What would the original finish have been? Looking under a loupe, I'm not sure whether the case reference and serial numbers were even applied before that finish
It is possible that the spiral polish was original, though I have seen many more 18k UG with vertical brush or mirror polished finishes.
The lack of smoothing of the engraving is of even greater concern, though. In the large (linked) photo of your case back, it is clear that the watch was used extensively, and yet there appears to be little, if any natural wear to the engraving.
I would also add that the quality of the engraving is crude, and that strikes me as being dissonant with an 18k watch that would have been dedicated to an important executive.
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Mazoue
·Thanks @Dre, that is very much appreciated.
I do not wish to scrutinise the dial belonging to @Dre however I think it is fair to say that the engraving of the emblem on my watch is at least as precise.
The typeface used for the lower text is also extremely similar. I don't think anyone has raised any concerns regarding this text on my watch although I understand the concern regarding the consistency with the applied U.
For those people who people who believe the watch to be a fake, how do you explain the complexity of the dial engraving (albeit by machine or by hand) along with the use of a genuine UG typeface in the lower half of the dial, when this text is not found in this position on a normal Polerouter? If this watch is a fake, someone went to absolutely amazing lengths to create it.
I do not wish to scrutinise the dial belonging to @Dre however I think it is fair to say that the engraving of the emblem on my watch is at least as precise.
The typeface used for the lower text is also extremely similar. I don't think anyone has raised any concerns regarding this text on my watch although I understand the concern regarding the consistency with the applied U.
For those people who people who believe the watch to be a fake, how do you explain the complexity of the dial engraving (albeit by machine or by hand) along with the use of a genuine UG typeface in the lower half of the dial, when this text is not found in this position on a normal Polerouter? If this watch is a fake, someone went to absolutely amazing lengths to create it.
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Mazoue
·Movement shot - revealing a Cal 69.
Photo of inside of the caseback - it was serviced as recently as Oct 2012. Would that be the name of the watchmaker that has signed the inside of the caseback? Does anybody recognise the name?
Photo of inside of the caseback - it was serviced as recently as Oct 2012. Would that be the name of the watchmaker that has signed the inside of the caseback? Does anybody recognise the name?
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Mazoue
·It may be Bijouterie Guiral. They are based in Annecy, which would not be inconsistent with the seller living in south east France.
No. Drew a blank there. Back to the drawing board.
No. Drew a blank there. Back to the drawing board.
Edited:
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STANDY
··schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collectorFew things to ponder
March to March that's weird. ( why would someone put March twice and not 1941- 1961. )
T H instead of Tore that's weird for a guy that has worked for 20+ years and considering he's role
And thirdly if only hes sleeve was shorter in the below picture
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inaugural_Stockholm_-_New_York_(19).jpg
March to March that's weird. ( why would someone put March twice and not 1941- 1961. )
T H instead of Tore that's weird for a guy that has worked for 20+ years and considering he's role
And thirdly if only hes sleeve was shorter in the below picture
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inaugural_Stockholm_-_New_York_(19).jpg
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Gstp
·Few things to ponder
March to March that's weird. ( why would someone put March twice and not 1941- 1961. )
T H instead of Tore that's weird for a guy that has worked for 20+ years and considering he's role
And thirdly if only hes sleeve was shorter in the below picture
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inaugural_Stockholm_-_New_York_(19).jpg
His name was Tore Henrik Nilert so nothing strange with the H.
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