Rust bucket special

More scary photographs.
I have the chronograph disassembled. Some issue with the hammer. There was a big blob of rust connecting the hammer to the piller wheel. I did not use any force, but several pillars came away with the hammer. The rest of the parts came off with little effort. The hammer stud is threaded into the plate. So the hammer first unscrewed. Once I removed the pillar wheel the hammer unscrewed as a unit. I have the hammer off the other watch and they are identical. The hammer stud 8221 bushing seems to be where the rust came from. This looks to be threaded in as well. I was able to separate what is left of this bushing from from the stud and return the stud to the plate.

This morning a 225 4th wheel came up on the new listings. I grabbed it right away as it was a good price and a seller I have used before. Silly me it was only later I realized they also have a hammer that was in my watch list. Could have combined the shipping. No hurry on the hammer as I have one that will work. Eventually when I restore the donor movement will be when I really need it.


I have also confirmed that this is a 23/72 pair of watches. If one looks at the balance bridge and the chronograph bridge the differences between the 72 and 71 can be seen. The 71 has a point on the chronograph bridge.


The hour wheel and minute pinion are still stuck together. The pallet bridge screw is also still tight. One has to give the kano time to work. I could remove the other bridges. I suspect the spring is locked solid, but there is play in the wheel train. The cannon pinion could be what is holding things up. One has to be extra careful, as the under dial parts are what are different between the 23 and the 72.

-j

Halloween's not 'til the 31st of this month you know.

That Kroil is good stuff. I keep it on my bench for use with antique firearms and just general household chores.

Only thing is: Kroil is advertised as "The Oil That Creeps." Claims to penetrate openings as small as 1/3,000,000th of an inch. Says so right there on the can. If it'll accomplish that then how come it doesn't "creep" right out of that folded seam in that thin sheet steel can?

It's fun to follow projects like yours.

Mine is in a plastic bottle. I got this from one of the dealers in the Silicon Valley clock club who would by bulk chemicals and repackage them into usable amounts. I have had this bottle nearly 30 years one only needs a few drops. The hard part is waiting for it to do the work.

Supposedly this is what they use to loosen the bolts on the Golden Gate (and other bridges) when they need to adjust them.

-j

... and it is apart.

The hour wheel and canon pinion came off together. Was able to separate them once apart, simply by pressing them on the block with a piece of pegwood. Amazing how such a little bit of rust can sticktion them.

Turns out mainspring was broken. In the usual pattern. Was expecting to see a lot of rust.

Click screw snapped. There was a bit of rust here. Guess I am going to have to invest in a screw removal tool.

Pallet bridge screw still does not want to move. The minute register pawl also refuses to release. Surprising the setworks crown wheel unscrewed, even though it was stuck together. Some of the teeth on the clutch are stripped as is the idler on the setworks.

More progress. Some of the parts were put through a pre cleaning solution of black tea followed by a pass through the watch cleaner.

Spare parts arrived from oFrei and the UK.

Of course the watch gods demand their sacrifice, The set lever 443 disappeared into thin air. Was a bit rusty, and I am considering replacing it anyway. I think it fell through when I unscrewed it. Naturally this is a part oFrei is out of stock on. Their website also incorrectly listed the small 450 setting wheel.

Of course I can get these parts from the Val23 donor movement. I will want them when I restore that movement as I do not like having an incomplete watch to anticipate working on. V23/72 parts are hard to come by, so I figure to get them while I can. Eventually I will need as stem and spring.

Still have the stuck bridge screw on the pallet bridge. I got the Bergeon extractor tool ordered from France. Cleaning also reveled that there are more broken screws. I think about 6 so far. Some of these screws are smaller than a 605 surface electronics resistor. I have quite a few screws, sorting through them is going to be interesting. Guess that is what the old screw plates I collected are for. I may also try the Evap-O-Rust, to see if it will take more of the corrosion off. Of course the staining will remain, but that just makes the movement more interesting.

(side note, The Landerons I am working on are in the background. Goat and Bunny can be seen running on the bench. Next up will be 'Mouse,' which will be practice replacing a balance staff, and possibly a plate jewel, but that is another project.

Meanwhile, this watch goes back into the waiting queue for the extractor to arrive, or I can get the pallet screw to turn without bunging up a cheap screwdriver. (do not want to use my good screwdrivers on it.) I ground a screwdriver point onto a broken allen wrench, but it just slips. I really need to get a byte on both sides of the screw.

The base plate is now clean of all broken screws. I test fit the top bridges to see how they fit. Even after cleaning the plates with pegwood there is still a lot of corrosion. Especially on the barrel bridge plate where there was a blob of rust. The barrel bridge should probably be replaced, but these are hard to come by. There are some online, but it is hard to tell if they are for a Val-23 or the correct Val-72. The latter has cutouts for the Hour register. This is also an old style movement.

The activating pawl (8650) also has a broken screw from the connecting plate (link) this is also steel, so can not be etched. Tiny tiny screw. That will be down the line as the next step will be to get the timekeeping/setting working first. The setting works is going to be mostly replaced with all the expensive parts I got last fall. Hopefully I can get the click to fit. The inside bridge is pretty corroded. The microscope[e make it look worse than it is. It actually looks silver gray.


Most of the rust seems to have leaked in from the setworks. The wheel train was frozen solid. This ripped out teeth. I still need to get a mainspring as the old one was rusted shattered into little chunks. I did get a new stem and staff. Will be interesting If I can save the hairspring. That side of the watch seems to have been in fairly good shape other than the stuck screw. I think this side was mostly affected by moisture which turned the screws black. The screws are like glass hard and will tear the tip off of a screwdriver. It took about 3 days to etch the broken plate screws. What came out was some sort of black sludge.

The hairspring is still white/gray as it is some kind of alloy. I can not swap the Val-23 one I was going to use for parts as that one is not incabloc. The incabloc sets are easy to come by but the overcoil and staff is different. I would have to sink another 200 or so USD for a balance complete. Which is basically the hairspring.

At least I have a half dozen or so AS 1187/94 to practice on. I also need to change some staffs on the landeron 48s.


I doubt a watch can get much worse and still be restorable. The coupling clutch (old style) spring can not easily be removed from the bridge. Difficult to etch it out as the spring is also steel. For now I will leave it as I can get to the bridge screws as these where the ones that snapped off.

It is amazing what watches with this caliber movements go for online. Otherwise I would simply swap the movement or more of the parts.

Having good success with the AS 1194 watches I decided to work on this watch again. A couple weeks ago (A fortnight) I got an assortment of Val-23 screws. Some of the existing screws were little lumps of rust.

The first step was to soak the screws into the Evap-O-Rust for an evening (around 2 or three hours.) This actually did a good job and many more of the screws were in better shape than I though. Having spares probably helped.

Encouraged I then soaked the plates and wheel train. In order to match screws I disassembled the Val-23 I was going to use for a parts movement. This turned out to be a Bulova AK 13 with a wrecked dial. As this is parts sorting I sorted then directly onto the data sheet.


Sadly while the balance looked to be in good shape it was damaged by light rust. Worse was I tangled the hairspring attempting to remove it some months ago. I can not swap balances as the Bulova does not have shock absorbers and the plates are drilled differently on the Val-72.

The new wheel train and motion works parts all went together. The train actually spins really nice. A disappointment though was the 4th wheel is for a Val-23 and has a shorter pivot on the dial side. Some parts are more interchangeable than others. One has to really look close as these are often sold by base caliber. On the other hand, looking at the photo of the rusted dial, it looks like the remains of a rusted extension tube were on this. So there may be a workaround.

I really do not like having more than one watch apart at a time (apart from watches purchased disassembled.) More of a guideline as I have some of the Landerons still apart waiting for tools or materials. Still I figured that since I was on a roll I would fit all the chronograph parts back together. Made more urgent as I took the Bulova AK 13 apart to match screws.


Notice the screws on the left of the above photo. Those are the hour recorder screws.

The results of this re-assembly are mixed. I am glad I did this. I am also finding I can take the chrono down and back in about 45 minutes. A huge disappointment was that the new pillar wheel is missing one of the pillars. I did not check this on arrival. I think I got this from oFrie It has however been about 4 or 5 months and who is to say I did not break it myself. I will put this down as noob tax or a sacrifice to the watch gods. The part is good enough for testing.

A worse disappointment was that the breaking arm was not releasing. Comparisons with the equivalent bulova part and old photographs show the tail had completely rusted away. It can be seen that the Evap-O-Rust turns the surface rust black. The plating however is unaffected. The finish on the Heuer is much more polished than the Bulova and (generic?) spares from oFrie which have a brushed finish.

The minute recorder is also problematic. This part seems to be riveted together. The arbor is rusted through at the top pivot. It turns freely but it wobbles. The jumper for this is around 80 or 90 USD with S&H, so that would be the last part I get. Sadly this jumper was broken on both watches as it crosses the dial dog screw. The dial dog screw was missing from the Bulova which was probably ripped out of a gold case. (what remains of the hands are gilt as is the dial furniture.)

Still the results are encouraging. I also include the before photograph for those to lazy to scroll the thread or search the other threads about this disaster.



It is also interesting that the discoloration patina is not that noticeable in the after photograph. The hammer is a NOS hammer from oFrie and it seems to reflect the same as the other salvaged parts. On the whole I am pleased with the results of Black tea and Evap-O-Rust. The back of this case is missing, so If I ever do get it working I will put a display back on it.

Hard to believe they are the same watch. I see that all the pillar wheel teeth are in the before photo What can not bee seen is the rust wraps around the bottom of the pillar wheel all the way to the hammer break. All the motion works had to be replaced as the watch was pretty much rusted through. Surprisingly the stem was not affected. Looks like the leak was from the case tube or one of the pushers. As noted the hands are now shadows of rust stains on the dial.

The balance looks deceptively good in the before photo. I am really bummed out about this. What can not be seen is the under balance damage to to the pallet fork bridge which was months of work and entailed a new bridge. This damage also included some of the train bridge. Fortunately thanks to a kind person on eBay, who did not have the correct part had the needed Bridge screws.

I did get a new staff, but want more practice before attempting to stake it into the old (rusted) balance. New balances seem to be around 200USD listed give or take 50USD. Always the debate to throw more funds at this watch, or other watches that have cheaper parts. I can get AS balances complete for less than 20 Bucks.

I have also been procrastinating getting a new mainspring and spare stem. I swap the stem back and forth between the two movements to test. A new barrel plate part #105 is really needed do to wear and damage. That part is really hard to come by as it only works on VAL-72 and Val-88. It is really easy to start throwing more and more at this. I probably have about 300USD or more invested so far plus about two or three months of evening entertainment. Looks like there is another 250 to 500USD worth of parts needed. There seems to be a reason the cheapest I see scrap movements listed is about 1200 to 1500USD.

There are also parts needed for the hour recorder. Specifically a screw that connects a link on the reset hammer. The tail of this screw is still stuck in the activating lever, which is steel so I can not use Alum. The set of screws only came with the basic V23 screws



On the left can be seen the remaining screws. Unlike the top of the watch, I do not have an assembled plate like I did with the Bulova Val-23. So I will need to use photographs taken for these threads to see what goes where.

The silver lining though, Is I cleaned and lubricated the Bulova movement, and it runs. Not only that but I engaged the chronograph and it ran for 24 hours. (Something I have not been able to get the Landerons to do.) I really do like how the pillar wheel turns. Too bad the movement is a Bulova. I have a personal disdain for Bulova watches which is a lesson on how to destroy something that once had value. I must not be alone as that Bulova farm of time wasters still has not sold for a fair value.

For some reason Omega reminds me of the best of the 1960s. Bulova on the other hand reminds me of the worst. I recall not liking their advertisements. On the other hand I loved the Timex advertisements. I guess the watch gods and the Universe is trying to tell me something. But that is another thread unto itself.

I think this is becoming more of an art project than a watch. At least I figured out how to do macro zooms with the iPhone. Still some depth of field issues, but much better than before.

Surprisingly the hour recorder went back together. Even the broken screw on the rocker arm had enough threads to at least temporally hold it in place. Everything slides and moves as it should. Still have not found the eccentric post which I think went behind the bench. Part of reassembling this is so I can pull the bench apart. and clean out behind it. The back has bookcases the top of the big picture books acting as a shelf. I really should make a proper shelf.

There are a few parts left over.


Most are the spare screws as I bought a screw assortment as noted above. Having spare screws is not a bad thing.

I also decided to clean the end stones and put the balance bridge back together. I replaced the lower incabloc assembly as these are one of the part is easy to come by.



For fun and the above photograph I put the broken balance back in. The Evap-O-Rust and a pass through the cleaner did a respectable job removing the surface gunk. I think some of this is rust from other parts. The top of the staff seems to have rusted in the top jewel. One could see the dirt or whatever was on the cap jewel before cleaning.

The hairspring however remains 🤬 I did tweak it a little. The textbooks really do not deal with the compound gentle bends. I can not get it to go flat. There are too many overlapping coils. The overcoil keeps getting tangled in the other coils. I probably need to do 993 more hairsprings before tackling this one again. I was hoping it was a simple bend from when the screwdriver slipped on the collet. But no. Such things do make one question fate and the illusion of free will. If I could only have those few fractions of a second back.



I really need to just shove it back in with the rest of the escapement and set it asside again. I keep thinking for want of a hairspring the watch was lost. New balances can be had, but the ones for this caliber are the most expensive out there (Thank you Rolex.)

I'd swap the other balance, but I found on the A Schild watches the non incabloc pivots are longer or shaped differently and they push the cap jewels out of place. Inc staffs sort of fit in non inc bridges, but the watches tend not to run in dial up or dial down posiition. I suppose they sell the different staffs for a reason.

At least assembled the collection of parts is less likely to get lost.

Frustrating because everything cleaned up so well. And now it goes back in a box to sit in the drawer again.

... and here I thought I set this watch asside.

Sorting through hands looking to see if I can find the 351 hand I found these three rusted hands. They are exactly the style I was thinking would look best on this watch. They even look like they will fit.

So I guess the hands are not rust stains on the dial.

Not sure if this is good or bad. It still irks me that I bunged up the hairspring. I never did get a mainspring for this. The temptation persists to get the damaged parts while the getting is good. But without a working hairspring the watch remains no more than an art project.

The hands will need some work. I think they can probably be soaked in the Evap-O-Rust. Then they would need to be polished back smooth, which would be grey steel.

Not quite sure how to re-guild them. I supose plating would be best. Do not have any gold plating stuff. I was going to attempt some nickel plating. Copper plating is also said to be easy. Not sure if brass can be plated the same way.

Another option might be to use the heat transfer foil. I got a bunch of that when I was doing the dialing experiments all those years ago. Normally one would use the copier toner as a binder. Might make for an interesting experiment.

Here it is February and you are still scaring the liver out of me!

This thread's like a horror movie, scary, yet one is drawn to continue watching.

It is a zombie watch. It eats brains for lunch. This watch is now named "Rusty Zombie.'

Still I find it to be a pleasant watch to work on. There has to be a reason these sell for so much $$$. I got a BIN offer last night for one of the parts at a really great price. So I implused it, along with some other parts the seller had. eBay does not like to do combined shipping with BIN items. The same thing happened with some Landeron return springs, I BIN ed all three the seller had. Fortunately the seller is an experienced one. They wanted to know if I was a vulture. I guess some people buy the cheap parts then sell them for twice the price. Of course I will not know what the parts are till I have them in hand. A lot of time the cheap parts are the worn used ones that are only good for art projects. This is now an art project, which hopefully some day I can wear on my wrist, even if it is a ginormous watch.

I think the manufactures are going to find this biting themselves in the foot or hand. There really needs to be some way collectors such as myself who maintain their own collection can become certified to purchase parts. Especially vintage parts. Otherwise the whole system will collapse. Look at the complaints of people crying about a few mm missing from a lug.

It is even worse with the pipe organs. Today was a Pipe organ day, which made dealing with the eBay stuff all the more frightful. I did finally sell the Bulova farm, now waiting for payment. Part of the reason I decided to impulse the two parts I do not really need until after I get the watch ticking again. I also keep procrastinating getting a mainspring. I keep swapping the stem over to the Bulova what needs a dial.

The other weird thing is that a set of leaf hands showed up today on the bay. As I said over on the TAG/Heur forums the universe is weird.

The plot thickens. I was coming close to pulling the switch on the oFrie balance this week. Like many I have searches on eBay from time to time. I was piddling around and this popped up. For 20 bucks I decided to take the risk. I have the old balance and a new staff. Of course this means a bit more work as the spring will be needed to be vibrated. Still the balance will need poising anyway.

Even if I had not stretched the old spring, it was slightly rusted, so the timing would be questionable. Most of the balances on grd bay do not seem to have the over coil. I was going to call and ask oFrei on this.

Perhaps it is time to see If I can fix/ or modify my watch timer pick up to do some of this. I found a book I was looking for which goes into some of these details.

You are going to fool around and pull this rehab off, you are!

It remains a project that will not simply go away.

Everytime I give it up, something comes along and says 'Feed me!'

Now what?

Too bad I can not just drop this in place. It is interesting how it is shipped with the long pin for adjusting the length of the spring. The other spring has an overcoil.

I do have this, but I expect it is out of calibration.


A more interesting project would be to make some sort of electronic device. There are descriptions of that sort of think in the 'Theory of Horology' book. One is called a microbalisometer. I suspect the inventor retired to the island Bali in Indonesia.

There was also a machine called the Omega-Metric.

According to the text this requires a large number of balances and springs to statistically sort them. Probably overkill for what I need to do.

Easy to dream up some sort of automated device for working with this stuff. In practice it is much easier to simply sort though trays of old watch parts speculating on what they are.

Curious that a watch balance is a harmonic oscillator. Same as an organ pipe. I have a bunch of scripts for analyzing sound fonts. I suspect that the wave forms are much the same. The tricky part, well boring stuff, is using the camera or audio API to capture the data. I did find and download a program that emulates a timegrapher. I even once connected the old pick up to the scope. I think there was some data but I need a pre-amp.

Somehow I suspect this project is going to cost more than getting a balance complete from oFrie. I never did call and see if the ones they have listed have an overcoil. Most of the ones online have a flat hairspring. I suspect quite a few of those are non incabloc.

In the meantime, it is all about the dreaming and anticipation for how to do it. And there are plenty of other rabbit warrens to explore.

found this thread today and it is a great story to follow through .
any updates on it ?, its been a while since the last one

I still have some stuck screws and need courage to assemble and time the balance.
I damaged the click screw as I did not know about alum at the time. Got another bridge plate, which is a different variation on the activating slide. Either way I would have to drill and tap holes, so it sits on the side.

Probably not the best watch to tackle after 18 years of inactivity. In the last two or so years I also aquired almost another Val-23 and a Val-22 to practice on. Had a lot of AS three handers, then have progressed back to Omega 50x/55x/56x etc and the bumper automatics.
This watch which has most of a case dial and hands, is a bit of a grail priority.

Every now and then I take out the mangled hairspring and tease it again. The new spring needs an overcoil, which at the moment is beyond my skills.

It really is about exploring the deeper parts of the rabbit warrens. The faster one goes, the more one stays in one place.