Poll: Which Omega PAF Railmaster should I purchase

[fizz]

I'll (try to) keep this short, simple and specific.

I'm on touch with all 3 sellers and have spoken to them about these pieces. I am even posting the links to the actual listings from their respective sites for full transparency (and because I know I am the only one who seems to be obsessed by these).

The Question: Which of these PAF's Railmasters should I seriously consider for potential purchase? I've been on the hunt for years (4 to be precise) and while many have come and gone, I was either not ready financially or had other interests to pursue (damn you vintage Rolex!), but that's changed now and to me, personally, the time is right (I have a work anniversary coming up...) so I see no point in stalling/delaying further.

I've cropped the images (one each, though there are more on the seller's sites) to ensure the images are of uniform dimension and I've tried to use the same type of classic head-on-angle shot for display here.

I've also listed my own Pros and Cons and preferences:

Your help: Please either reply with 1, 2 or 3 (and if you'd like, your own thoughts and justifications):

1 - PAF Railmaster 135.004

Seller: WatchFID



Pros:
+ Honest original dial, clearly unmolested by any tampering.
+ Great pictures
+ Comes with Extract (digital PDF version only, original lost, but seller will apply for new one if I pursue).
+ Great reputation (these guys know vintage and are behind the Moonwatch only book)
+ Provide their own detailed assessment
+ Price (12K Euro, negotiable):

Cons:
- Significant radium burn, especially around 10/11 hour markers
- Not a 2914 which has an engraving on the movement as well.
- Not the most appealing dial visually (I've asked for and seen wrist shots too).
- Less collectable than a 2914.
- Extract needs to be re-applied for (by seller).

Personal opinion: Least preferential of the 3 but I'd buy it, especially if the price were discounted further.

2 - PAF Railmaster 135.004

Seller: Vintage Portfolio



Pros:
+ Visually probably the most appealing dial (IMHO). They have short video in their listing as well which shows how stunning it looks.
+ Detailed pictures including extract/caseback etc.
+ Comes with Extract.
+ Great reputation (experts in vintage, their assessment of their watches is unblemished and they are factual).
+ Price (12.2K Euro, slightly negotiable):

Cons:
- Relumed dial (mentioned in description + seller has verified)
- Not a 2914 which has an engraving on the movement as well.
- Less collectable than a 2914.

Personal opinion: Despite knowing that it's a relume, I really fancy the dial and the overall condition. In fact, the relume is extremely well done and in fact may ensure the longevity of this watch (since there is no more expectation of further damage).

3 - PAF Railmaster 2914

Seller: Benwatch



Pros:
+ 2914, more collectable than a 135.004.
+ Those arrow hands....
+ Comes with Extract.
+ Great condition considering it's still radium (the burn on the dial isn't bothersome).
+ Chocolate dial.
+ Price (14k Euro, after negotiations, which is fairly good for this model in 2021...):
+ Perhaps the biggest draw: Even though the seller doesn't have the repute of the others abobe, I've bought from him before (my first vintage in fact) and we've stayed in touch over the years and exchanged thoughts and views on vintage watches.

Cons:
- Lack of detailed description or images (but these have been provided or clarified outside the listing).
- Priciest of the 3 options.

Personal opinion: For reasons described above, and if cost weren't an issue, this would be my first preference.

Thanks for reading and looking forward to your views.

 

[watchyouwant]

Number 3 for euro 12k. Not more. From the seller perspective , auction would have to fetch euro 15k incl. All fees for the buyer , to get his euro 12k. And that is a big call..... So, reason with him......That's the only one, that will keep it's value in the future. Tips of the luminous wells could have been refilled.... Covid has changed values lately. Unsure which price direction these rare, but not mainstream , will be in the Future. If you need more Infos, use PM. Good luck. Achim

 

[gemini4]

Number 3 as well.
Broad Arrow hands, PAF engraved movement.
Reference 2914-5 was the 1st PAF Railmaster/Seamaster.
I believe this reference was only issued as a PAF military watch.

 

[watchyouwant]

gemini4

Number 3 as well.
Broad Arrow hands, PAF engraved movement.
Reference 2914-5 was the 1st PAF Railmaster/Seamaster.
I believe this reference was only issued as a PAF military watch.

there is no evidence, that 2914-5 as a sub reference was only issued to the PAF and not as well produced as a normal civil Railmaster. we researched that in the 90`s with John Diethelm from the factory.

 

[gemini4]

watchyouwant

there is no evidence, that 2914-5 as a sub reference was only issued to the PAF and not as well produced as a normal civil Railmaster. we researched that in the 90`s with John Diethelm from the factory.

Makes sense since Omega doesn’t have any 2914 sub reference records. That being said, a Google search of the 2914-5 seems to display many PAF Seamasters.

Edited: Aug 16, 2021

 

[Donn Chambers]

#3 for sure. If you are serious about collecting this, you would always regret it if you bought one of the others. Would you regret the extra $2k in 5 years? Probably not. But looking at #1 or #2 in 5 years, I suspect you would remember #3 and regret not getting it.

 

[fizz]

Thanks everyone so far for your responses, especially Achim who's hit the nail on the head by indicating that there is no predicting where the prices of these will go since they are yes, rare, but not at all mainstream.

It seems 2914 (or no 3) is unanimously the one to get. I haven't started negotiating with the seller (yet) and I know he's had the watch in his inventory for well over a year (we first spoke about it in July last year when he had just received it) so I hope he will be open to my offers. Let's see.

I do have one question @watchyouwant. When you state that "Tips of the luminous wells could have been refilled", are you indicating that some portion of this watch may have been relumed? If yes, do you mean the hands, dial or both (or have I completely and utterly misunderstood you?).

 

[watchyouwant]

Request 2 more pictures from the seller. have him take out the movement from the case. take one very good close up picture nearly flat from the dial rim with luminous well tips ( very small top of the luminous well triangles ) on 3 and 4 in focus. the second one the same way for 4 and 5 with the tips in focus. maybe 5 and 6 as well. just show the depth and colour of the radium filling.

 

[Willi]

Pick three milord! You have already set your heart on it. The others will leave a little pocket of dissatisfaction every time you see them on your wrist.

 

[fizz]

Some quick update, primarily on watch no 3, whose seller I've been communicating with. Here are some pictures of interest to answer some questions asked earlier:

Under UV light:



Personal Observation: Radium seems to exhibit a faint glow in my opinion (specks, not complete illumination as far as I can tell). Not sure if this is acceptable.

Case back:



Personal observation: No movement no is not the norm...

Movement:



Personal observation: The movement has both the serial no and PAF engraved, as it should be for this movement/reference.

I am still waiting for Geiger counter reading information.

Your thoughts welcome...

 

[fizz]

Also, I got talking with seller 2, the one with the (allegedly) relumed dial and he confirmed that while the dial glows under UV light it fades rather quickly, and as far as he can remember the dial does not pass the Geiger counter check (he was replying on holiday, not having access to the watch currently).

However, and this is a question for the vintage experts out there, would a 135.004 (from 64) have a Radium dial? Weren't Omega purportedly using Tritium by this time without the dials necessarily indicating it?

Any thoughts on this would also be appreciated.

 

[gemini4]

fizz

However, and this is a question for the vintage experts out there, would a 135.004 (from 64) have a Radium dial? Weren't Omega purportedly using Tritium by this time without the dials necessarily indicating it?

Yes, BUT military issues weren't necessarily subject to the same regulations as the civilian market.

Basically, I'd expect to see radium lume in a 135.004-63 Seamaster PAF but tritium in a 135.004-63 Railmaster. I also seen 63 Railmasters with TT dials as well.

 

[fizz]

But why if the dials (whether for military or civilian) came from the same stock and is there generally compiled historic evidence to suggest this (i.e. most or ALL PAF 135.004's have almost always and exclusively been radium).

 

[gemini4]

fizz

But why if the dials (whether for military or civilian) came from the same stock and is there generally compiled historic evidence to suggest this (i.e. most or ALL PAF 135.004's have almost always and exclusively been radium).

I don't quite understand your question. The military 2914/135.004 dials (and casesbacks) were custom made for the PAF and the FAP. Seamaster for the PAF, Flightmaster for the FAP. Dials certainly didn't come from the same bin as the Railmasters.

 

[fizz]

Thanks for the insight. I guess what I am trying to see the information regarding whether these later Railmasters were Tritium or Radium is based more on generally acceptable information and conjecture rather than anything Omega might have officially stated. If so, a part of me wonders whether what we think as a redial/relume is in fact just that.

Also, any thoughts on the new pics shared especially the lack of movement no on the caseback and the UV shots.

 

[fizz]

I have just realised that the watch that I've been looking at and seriously considering (no 3 from this list for those joining the show late...)

is the same watch that was extensively discussed and dissected here:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/railmaster-2914-5-paf-but.74365/

@Fost @oddboy would you agree?

 

[watchyouwant]

Had completely forgotten about this thread..... The last pics. By Fost with the new iPhone now show clearly, that the lume was redone. Lume plots 4 and 5 show, following the borderline of the lume wells, a cover up of damage to the black dial colour. That is only done, when some impatient watch person scrapped the original lume out with a sharp object; often a fine screw driver to strip the lume wells clean before relume. The cover up paint looks like the ink from a Japanese Pentel fibre art pen. Still a good relume job.

 

[fizz]

Yup and I guess that settles it then.

Fost sold to this dealer and now he's trying to sell it to me. With the critical and extensive inspection that's been done on it, there's no way I will be going ahead with it now.

So it's either option 1 or 2 or option 4 (another seller not featured here).

I think I'm exhausted by all this and want to take a break for now....

 

[philips]

The PAF is a handsome watch, for sure.

 

[fizz]

philips

The PAF is a handsome watch, for sure.

It is but if anyone wanted to know why vintage is a minefield for the uninitiated, let this thread be their guide.

Unfortunately, all the other 2914 PAF's that I have been offered/seen/enquired are from hardcore watch dealers (not collectors) who are charging premiums that don't make sense (while simultaneously reminding me how rare the watch is or how having Omega extracts is enough certification of originality) but are content with those watches sitting in their inventory for years.

One of them, who I first spoke with way back in 2017 still has the watch and has actually increased its price by over 25% since my initial enquiry back them.

I'll say this again....it just doesn't make sense!!!