Hi gang, so as everyone knows, I've been lusting for a broad arrow Railmaster. In the past few weeks, I've come close to a deal thanks to the ever extensive OF network. One was more exploratory, but this one was a near deal. In fact, thanks to the great trust among members, the owner of this watch sent it from far off to me here in Canada so I could inspect it myself before finishing off the trade. [legal preamble] I'd like to point out that the current owner and I are in close contact about issues and questions described below, and he is fully aware that I'm creating this thread, even though the answers may be harsh. We both want to know the real deal. He is being very forthright and upfront about issues he's aware of and is willing to discuss compromises concerning the original deal we have been discussing. This thread is in no way intended to slight him or this watch for that matter. I hope you all understand. [/legal preamble] OK, now that the legal preamble is out of the way, here's the watch. It looks like a nice example of a broad arrow PAF Railmaster (note the Seamaster on the dial). Everything sounded awesome. Seamaster dial, PAF and number engraved on the back, PAF on the movement, and a movement number right in the correct/accepted set of movement numbers. It even came with a 2015 Extract indicating that it was a "military watch" engraved with PAF and delivered to Pakistan. So the owner sent it to me to examine - a true example of trust and gentlemanliness. There were some issues with the watch that the owner disclosed upfront. For example, the finishing on the midcase is brushed all over when it should be a mix of brushed and polished as you can see in the pic above. the caseback is pretty polished (and yes, the serial number is there, it's just VERY feint - not really important to this thread) and the watch wasn't running reliably. There was also the matter of some different colours of different movement parts. Again, this was disclosed upfront, so I knew it going in. While it may be a red flag, I was still willing to entertain the deal. I asked around of a few OF well knowns more familiar with Railmasters than me, and opinion seemed to be somewhat divided. Some said it was a bad sign, others said they'd be more lenient with a real military watch as sometimes they were serviced in a hurry, and not always by the most experienced watchmakers. (image intentionally blurred to keep the movement number private, but you can see the concern about colouration. The thing to note is that the plate where the movement number and the PAF designation are engraved is the one that is out of colour compared to the rest of the movement.) All things considered, we exchanged videos of the watches we were going to trade and chatted back and forth for several days. It's been a very pleasant experience for me. the owner is pretty well known around here too and has a knack for finding "one owner" watches (this one is not one of them). Anyway, I thought the watch looked very nice, degradation and all. It looks like a well worn and much loved watch. The watch arrived yesterday. I was at a conference most of the day and didn't get home until about 23:30... but the first thing I did when I got home was take it to my bench and pull out the geiger. uh oh...... My understanding (including watches I've measured myself) is that a radium dial should measure at least 2000 cpm. This is obviously not in the ball park. It is further my understanding that all Railmasters - including PAF's - up to 135.004 should be radium (despite the fact that other contemporary watches - like Speedmasters - were already transitioning to tritium). So, looks like this dial has been relumed. OK, on to the black light then, to be sure.... OK, so no glow under UV light. I would expect the markers and the hands to glow pretty bright under UV. More like this... To be fair, I've read some (old) posts on MWR saying that some tritium mixtures (more so on Rolex) will not light up under UV, but may glow faintly on their own. I don't know the whole truth on this matter other than watches I've held in my own hands which I believe to be either tritium or radium and all of them glowed like this speedy dial under UV. The markers and hands do glow after being charged (more so after a shot of UV than say, a phone camera flash). They glow evenly and fade quickly. Within about 10-15 seconds, the glow is pretty much gone. Not off to a great start, but the owner was engaged in understanding the issues, and I genuinely believe that he was unaware of these issues when we began talking. Today, I went to visit the watch maker and see if we could get a quick assessment on what was wrong with the movement. He opened the caseback and took a look. A few things jumped out at him almost immediately. First, the regulator was pushed all the way to the left (en Francais, "retard".. or late or slow down). Obviously someone knew that this watch was running fast and tried to compensate for it. Second, and much, much, MUCH harder to photograph, he said that the hairspring on balance appeared to have been adjusted by hand, and not very well. (What he actually said was that it looked like someone wound it with a screw driver. I don't know what that means exactly to be honest.) He said this wasn't difficult to correct but may require a new balance complete. Seems these are available at a cost of about $300 on the open market, plus the cost of a full service. So, now the owner and I are discussing. I think the watch looks great and I'd love to add it to the collection and wear the hell out of it, but it's obviously not what we thought it was when we began discussing... and there is sure to be some valuation implications. So, all this to say.... What do you think of the lume? Radium? Tritium? Something else? perhaps coloured Luminova? Under a high power loupe, it looks like tritium and if it's a relume, it seems to be an old, and well done one. Assuming it's some sort of relume, what effect does this have on the value? Some folks I've talked to said that military watches were often relumed, so maybe it's acceptable? I know how to evaluate a Speedmaster dial with a relume, but not a Railmaster, let alone a PAF/military version. What do you think of the movement colouration issues? is that an immediate "no go"? Would you downgrade your standards for a military service watch on this point? or is it something more sinister? I'd love to find a way to complete the deal, I just don't have enough experience with Railmasters (or military watches for that matter) to know how to value these in consideration of these issues. and in case you're interested, this is the piece that we're discussing as part of the trade... Any and all feedback about the watch and the questions above are welcome. We are prepared for whatever comes regarding the watch. Please do not stray into commentary about the Railmaster owner on this thread. Feel free to PM me if you have something negative to say about his behaviour herewith. Thanks for your insights! I'm sure I'm going to learn some things!
Im not familiar with the PAF...but all of my Railmasters are radium. Further your dial shows the tell tale signs of a radium dial watch that was burned by the radium...so my guess is that the radium fell out of the hands (which is typical on these) and it was relumed. And for whatever reason they also relumed the dial. A shame. But, this is pure speculation on my part.
I'm not going to give my opinion on anything, but I will repost something that I've always used as a guide for making decisions on vintage watch trading / selling / buying. My questions to myself are: 1) How hard would it be to replace the watch your trading away? 2) How hard is it to find the watch your trading for? 3) How hard will it be to get parts / make repairs to the new watch? Sometimes though, the straightforward math of the above equation can't stop you from needing to scratch an itch for a watch you just gotta have.
Three golden rules of collecting. 1- Patience. 2- Patience. 3- Patience. there will always be another one.
Please help me get caught up here. Is he giving you the Railmaster and cash or are you giving him the 2998 and cash?
The speedy is a 105.002. But let's say it was originally thought to be an equitable deal. Now that some issues have surfaced, how does that change the equation - which basically amounts to, how to evaluate a railmaster paf with the noted issues?
We always say buy the seller and I think that's why you're willing to entertain this watch. But if a dealer had shown me this I'd have turned away. That being said consider less what you're willing to pay but what the next guy would pay if/when you were to decide to sell. I think multicolored movements are a big no-no in these parts (think of all the times we see this in big ticket items at auction houses). That being said I can't speak to the dial lume. There is a special railmaster out there for you... You don't need to settle. And I feel like this would be settling. Good luck with your decision! What great problems to have!
I will never buy a watch that I know will leave me having to answer a load of questions when it eventually becomes time to sell. And in this case I'd wait for a better condition 'ordinary' 2914 in the future rather than take the condition compromise of this PAF 2914 now
I wouldn’t do that deal even without the lume issues. An original leaf hand Speedy is a lot more interesting than a 3 hander that’s been up the Khyber IMO. I think you would be mad to do that swap particularly with the multitude of issues. If you must have a PAF RM then find a way to buy one for cash, or do without the PAF connection. It’s not like they ever won a war!
Hi OF, I am the owner of the PAF rm and I suggest Joel to open this thread. I am not even talking with the trade deal now as it is quite obvious now that we will not move on but now I am more interested to understand and confirm what the issue are ( I will.keep it as a beater btw ).. The idea was to answer some questions we had after we discovered the issue above. As a fool, I only rely on white light lume test and visual inspection when I got this watch. As Joel state, dial and hands really behave like old radium / tritium after white light exposure but the UV lamp test and the geiger count clearly show it is not. So can we all agree that the dial and hands were relumed? Or is there any other people having seen some dead radium / tritium behaving like this in the past? (Just asking..).
Hi J Well I like/luv it ....perhaps it doesn't have to be a financial decision and if you were going to repair the movement and strap it to your wrist until your dying day then....well heart over head. Otherwise.... Best - Neil
Great feedback guys . Thanks all around. To Fost's point, is the lume in fact an issue? Thats a key point for both he and I.
Imvho I would view the movement just the same as an old diving watch, ie parts will have been changed, the watch led a working life and I see no problem with that at all. It will have an effect on value but wouldn’t bother me, although I would certainly want an updated archive extract before finalising a deal. The real issue is the lume. If it’s original then the watch is very attractive and desirable, if it’s not then it will always bother you and you should stay away. Unfortunately a definitive answer might be tough without very close comparison (microscope?) with other Seamaster 2914’s of the same period. FWIW I have some nos 1960’s Rolex parts that definitely have original lume but don’t respond to UV. Don’t think I’ve seen that with Omega though (yet.)
I run by the 1 in 6 rule. One thing wrong I can live with For this particular watch lume is very important and my first hunch was relume before even reading a word. And @cristos71 s post above is a important for seasoned and newer collectors
Probably all of the PAF Railmasters I have seen have had a pretty tough life, sloppy tritium relumed dials or dials that had no lume at all. I think the PAF service dept used whatever was at hand including hands, dials and movement parts with no regard to how the watch would look visually. I have seen mixed dials between 2914s and 135s, dials with Tritium lume which is sometimes smeared over the edges of the plots, many dials with empty lume plots, which always look better filled with a substitute, I have seen stick service hands with tritium on both references, polished case backs and mid cases, all sorts of engraving both done by hand and machine. Different crowns, wrong plexi glasses. I have yet to see one in perfect nick. I rarely see PAF Railmasters for sale these days, the last one I saw was price on request which always means, very expensive. Military watches can be a bit grubby and that is acceptable for a lot of collectors. You can of course use radium to fill the plots again, but just be very careful with it. Cheers, Michael
