Omega closing down archives extract service??

bardamu · Jun 2, 2023

WurstEver
On reliability, I was surprised a little while back to have an extract refused on grounds that I was able to demonstrate to the heritage team staff were incorrect, thanks to the help of someone with access to relevant information. Seemed like wilful ignorance, which was pretty disappointing. I just dropped it (along with 120 CHF 😁), but I can imagine enough cases of this kind might have led to some questions being asked internally.

Me too I've had recently an extract refused on strange grounds, I was not surprised when I learned about the service closing down.

fizz · Jun 2, 2023

Giovanna replied back to my enquiry about when/if the service would resume and it doesn't sound positive:

"Unfortunately, we don’t know when it will be reestablished.
I’m sorry not being able to give you more information."

I also noticed on the website that even the Certificate of Authenticity (where you would send your watch for up to 2 months for an inspection at certain boutiques) is also now not available....

Omegafanman · Jun 4, 2023

I suspect this all links up with this thread. Shame that it appears to have killed off the archive service. Hopefully it can be reset once the dust has settled to support the genuine watch loving community.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/phi...r-a-3-000-000-fake.160146/page-4#post-2188909

MSNWatch · Jun 4, 2023

Omegafanman
I suspect this all links up with this thread. Shame that it appears to have killed off the archive service. Hopefully it can be reset once the dust has settled to support the genuine watch loving community.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/phi...r-a-3-000-000-fake.160146/page-4#post-2188909

At this point for Omega it’s all financial risk with no significant financial reward. They open themselves to litigation with the attendant financial loss associated with this plus the hit to their reputation for a service that adds very little to the bottom line. Why would they bother?

gatorcpa · Jun 4, 2023

However, most of the other higher-end companies provide similar services. Longines does it for free.

I think it more about the quality of the information Omega provided. Either the archives are a bigger mess than anyone knows, or Omega had the wrong people running them.
gatorcpa

pdxleaf · Jun 4, 2023

This discussion has acknowledged many costs, risks and limitations associated with the extracts. It also seems to show that good quality archive data is still valued.

It seems to me to send a bad signal if Omega permanently ends the extract and COA process based on this circumstance. Yes, there are limitations to what an extract provides. But ending access to the data at this point seems to be Omega signaling that their watches don't have reliable archive records and collectors are on their own.

I hope they can rebuild a reliable process for extracts.

Omegafanman · Jun 4, 2023

pdxleaf
This discussion has acknowledged many costs, risks and limitations associated with the extracts. It also seems to show that good quality archive data is still valued.

It seems to me to send a bad signal if Omega permanently ends the extract and COA process based on this circumstance. Yes, there are limitations to what an extract provides. But ending access to the data at this point seems to be Omega signaling that their watches don't have reliable archive records and collectors are on their own.

I hope they can rebuild a reliable process for extracts.

Yes - the history is a key part of the brand’s reputation and credibility which justifies the reputation and higher prices. They need to support research and knowledge about the brand to retain and grow that - even if it sometimes it throws up negative information. They have enough solid history to stand the odd error. The irony is that there are a lot of dedicated enthusiasts doing it for free so they would be silly to cut them off in my opinion. They are the best defence against fakery and hot money. Longines for example seem more geared into that.

MSNWatch · Jun 4, 2023

The main value of the extract is to pair a movement with a case. That mainly benefits the owner who wants to sell the watch to “prove” it is not a franken. And unless you are talking about earlier watches where the case has a dedicated serial number it is not difficult to assemble a franken watch that won’t be detected by this system.

I believe this service adds little if anything to the brand’s history - that stuff is well documented in so many other forms including the fact that historical designs of the brand are replicated in modern releases.

Omegafanman · Jun 4, 2023

MSNWatch
The main value of the extract is to pair a movement with a case. That mainly benefits the owner who wants to sell the watch to “prove” it is not a franken. And unless you are talking about earlier watches where the case has a dedicated serial number it is not difficult to assemble a franken watch that won’t be detected by this system.

I believe this service adds little if anything to the brand’s history - that stuff is well documented in so many other forms including the fact that historical designs of the brand are replicated in modern releases.

I do hear you but It’s a bit more nuanced than that in my view. WW2 UK for example alloy cases were swapped during the war but it does not make the watch fake per se. Also I have a watch where I was lucky to get (at some expense) an original fifty year old NOS case direct from Omega. I still have the old damaged case / it is not a franken. We need to be careful on the message we send out…. Does the watch have its original lubrication oils / any worn components replaced etc etc…..

OneTwo · Jun 4, 2023

Thought I’d give it once last ditch effort the other week to request one through the local OB but received the following:

As others have noted, it looks like it’s truly dead in the water for now….

140dave · Jun 4, 2023

MSNWatch
The main value of the extract is to pair a movement with a case. That mainly benefits the owner who wants to sell the watch to “prove” it is not a franken. And unless you are talking about earlier watches where the case has a dedicated serial number it is not difficult to assemble a franken watch that won’t be detected by this system.

I believe this service adds little if anything to the brand’s history - that stuff is well documented in so many other forms including the fact that historical designs of the brand are replicated in modern releases.

I think another very relevant piece of info it provides is simply what the movement started its Omega life as. It gives me confidence to know a movement that is in a 2998 case started it’s career in a 2998 case and not as a Seamaster. After that it is knowledge and experience, but I don’t think any amount of experience can tell you that a 321 movement started as a Speedmaster or Seamaster.

But totally agree with what I think was the overall point. An EOA does not stop a build-a-watch, just makes it harder to find the right starting point.

jaegodylan · Jun 4, 2023

Also worth noting the clause at the start of every extract.

“This document, which has been prepared solely on the basis of the information submitted by the client but without professional examination of the timepiece by the OMEGA Heritage Department, is neither a Certificate of Authenticity nor does it, in any way, attest to the authenticity of the watch mentioned below or any of its components as it only contains information provided by our production Archives. Furthermore this document does not constitute proof of the client’s or any other person’s ownership of the watch described hereafter.”

Would seem fairly effective at limiting liability. The reality is anyone with Moonwatch only could fairly effectively fake a serial.

dsio · Jun 4, 2023

140dave
I think another very relevant piece of info it provides is simply what the movement started its Omega life as. It gives me confidence to know a movement that is in a 2998 case started it’s career in a 2998 case and not as a Seamaster. After that it is knowledge and experience, but I don’t think any amount of experience can tell you that a 321 movement started as a Speedmaster or Seamaster.

But totally agree with what I think was the overall point. An EOA does not stop a build-a-watch, just makes it harder to find the right starting point.

About 10 years ago I was told in person by Alain that there were no 2998 records at all and that the extracts that had been issued prior to that had been effectively done on the honor system due to that information being in Lemania’s control back in the day and somehow lost indefinitely. For a time you would get a sorry we can’t help you type message for them along with a refund, then later 2998 certificates were being issued, which was extremely strange to me because the archive staff were adamant that no records exist on anything 321 or 320 including 2915, 2998 and nearly all 105.002.

I’m rather curious as to whether the records were found / located or whether they just chose to start approving them again on the honor system, because after rejecting requests for some time it did resume which never made sense to me.

If you have a look at this thread you’ll see my comments and @speedy4ever confirming that 20.5M is about where the 321/320 records begin. While I was a bit drunk that night I later confirmed what I heard from two others who were part of that discussion.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/need-your-views-on-this-speedy-ck2998.15643

Maybe they did somehow find new information after that discussion, I guess it is not impossible.

kaplan · Jun 4, 2023

dsio
About 10 years ago I was told in person by Alain that there were no 2998 records at all and that the extracts that had been issued prior to that had been effectively done on the honor system due to that information being in Lemania’s control back in the day and somehow lost indefinitely. For a time you would get a sorry we can’t help you type message for them along with a refund, then later 2998 certificates were being issued, which was extremely strange to me because the archive staff were adamant that no records exist on anything 321 or 320 including 2915, 2998 and nearly all 105.002.

I’m rather curious as to whether the records were found / located or whether they just chose to start approving them again on the honor system, because after rejecting requests for some time it did resume which never made sense to me.

If you have a look at this thread you’ll see my comments and @speedy4ever confirming that 20.5M is about where the 321/320 records begin. While I was a bit drunk that night I later confirmed what I heard from two others who were part of that discussion.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/need-your-views-on-this-speedy-ck2998.15643

Maybe they did somehow find new information after that discussion, I guess it is not impossible.

I've always seen this as the main problem too to be honest, as a relative outsider. The lack of transparency

They might as well be transparent about what's in their records, and what their own conclusions are. They did the opposite of what they should be doing. In my strong opinion they avoided including interesting data to avoid legal issues, yet they filled in the blanks or just made up things for others in the meantime.

For me it felt good that this whole thing happened, while as a collector it might've actually hurt each of us in the grand scheme of things.

Hope something good comes out of it and they go the Longines route where a friendly person just replies with everything interesting about your watch in an email

140dave · Jun 4, 2023

dsio
About 10 years ago I was told in person by Alain that there were no 2998 records at all and that the extracts that had been issued prior to that had been effectively done on the honor system due to that information being in Lemania’s control back in the day and somehow lost indefinitely. For a time you would get a sorry we can’t help you type message for them along with a refund, then later 2998 certificates were being issued, which was extremely strange to me because the archive staff were adamant that no records exist on anything 321 or 320 including 2915, 2998

Sorry, I was just using the 2998 as an example, I obviously picked the wrong reference to use. Change my post to 105.012-65 and I think the
same point I was attempting to make still holds.

pdxleaf · Jun 4, 2023

dsio
About 10 years ago I was told in person by Alain that there were no 2998 records at all and that the extracts that had been issued prior to that had been effectively done on the honor system due to that information being in Lemania’s control back in the day and somehow lost indefinitely. For a time you would get a sorry we can’t help you type message for them along with a refund, then later 2998 certificates were being issued, which was extremely strange to me because the archive staff were adamant that no records exist on anything 321 or 320 including 2915, 2998 and nearly all 105.002.

I’m rather curious as to whether the records were found / located or whether they just chose to start approving them again on the honor system, because after rejecting requests for some time it did resume which never made sense to me.

If you have a look at this thread you’ll see my comments and @speedy4ever confirming that 20.5M is about where the 321/320 records begin. While I was a bit drunk that night I later confirmed what I heard from two others who were part of that discussion.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/need-your-views-on-this-speedy-ck2998.15643

Maybe they did somehow find new information after that discussion, I guess it is not impossible.

Not to question your statement, just curious. I can see how a person would state a movement should match a reference, or add some dial details, but how did the date of production get on the early extracts? Seems weird that a person would order an extract for a 2998 and tell Omega the production date. Did Omega just SWAG the date?

dsio · Jun 4, 2023

pdxleaf
Not to question your statement, just curious. I can see how a person would state a movement should match a reference, or add some dial details, but how did the date of production get on the early extracts? Seems weird that a person would order an extract for a 2998 and tell Omega the production date. Did Omega just SWAG the date?

It might have been movement production date rather than when the movements were cased, presumably they would have had that information but I don’t know the answer for sure.

Archer · Jun 4, 2023

MSNWatch
The main value of the extract is to pair a movement with a case. That mainly benefits the owner who wants to sell the watch to “prove” it is not a franken. And unless you are talking about earlier watches where the case has a dedicated serial number it is not difficult to assemble a franken watch that won’t be detected by this system.

I believe this service adds little if anything to the brand’s history - that stuff is well documented in so many other forms including the fact that historical designs of the brand are replicated in modern releases.

I will strongly disagree. For any watch with a serial number below 50 million, the only way to verify the model that goes with the serial number, is to get an extract. This is not only a benefit to a seller, but also to a buyer, to make sure that what they are buying is a genuine LE for example.

If you consider that 50 million isn’t that long ago for Speedmasters in particular, being able to confirm what the watch is before paying a premium is valuable to a buyer for sure, given that dials from LE’s are regularly swapped into more recent watches...

michael e · Jun 4, 2023

dsio
About 10 years ago I was told in person by Alain that there were no 2998 records at all and that the extracts that had been issued prior to that had been effectively done on the honor system due to that information being in Lemania’s control back in the day and somehow lost indefinitely. For a time you would get a sorry we can’t help you type message for them along with a refund, then later 2998 certificates were being issued, which was extremely strange to me because the archive staff were adamant that no records exist on anything 321 or 320 including 2915, 2998 and nearly all 105.002.

I’m rather curious as to whether the records were found / located or whether they just chose to start approving them again on the honor system, because after rejecting requests for some time it did resume which never made sense to me.

If you have a look at this thread you’ll see my comments and @speedy4ever confirming that 20.5M is about where the 321/320 records begin. While I was a bit drunk that night I later confirmed what I heard from two others who were part of that discussion.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/need-your-views-on-this-speedy-ck2998.15643

Maybe they did somehow find new information after that discussion, I guess it is not impossible.

I could not get an archive for my 2998-2 (no records) but did get an archive for my 105.002 (19million) I wish I could have a few days looking through the archives, would be great.

bassem abadan · Jun 5, 2023

Archer
I will strongly disagree. For any watch with a serial number below 50 million, the only way to verify the model that goes with the serial number, is to get an extract. This is not only a benefit to a seller, but also to a buyer, to make sure that what they are buying is a genuine LE for example.

If you consider that 50 million isn’t that long ago for Speedmasters in particular, being able to confirm what the watch is before paying a premium is valuable to a buyer for sure, given that dials from LE’s are regularly swapped into more recent watches...

Dear all,Omega issued me two extract for MY 2998-5 with in 15 days ,two picture cal 321 and back case.
best reg
bassem

Omega closing down archives extract service??

bardamu

fizz

Omegafanman

MSNWatch

gatorcpa

pdxleaf

Omegafanman

MSNWatch

Omegafanman

OneTwo

140dave

jaegodylan

dsio

kaplan

140dave

pdxleaf

dsio

Archer

michael e

bassem abadan

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