By the same token of logic that I read some of these comments, that since a watch wasn’t assembled by Omega factory, then they are not considered official or real. Does the collective community feel the same way about the 40 extra radial dial Alaska III watches?

 

Why should that be so? My impression is that the sum of parts as spares usually is a factor 3...10 from the list price of the assembled product. Until now this observation was true for all industries I had a closer look on.

 

It makes my point either way as their is clearly a financial difference which would have to be accounted for hence the records from Omega would have to record that ...this is merely a lack of records issue as far as I can see

All the watches were made up from the same parts by the same people at the same time and sold for the same price at the same time as authorised and all should be accepted as same

 

And this is the key.

 

OK guys, I think we won't go to an agreement on this post.
And I personally have no problem with that, as I just wanted to help, nothing more.

Brief summarize of the situation :

- 400 Apollo Soyuz watches were produced and assembled by Omega in Biel, and shipped to De Marchi in Turin for the Italian market; these watches are all in a specific range of serial numbers. And we have the proof of that (invoices to De Marchi with 400 watches listed as Apollo - @Apollo-Soyuz I OBVIOUSLY have the documents too, sorry I mentioned Apollo Soyuz before, it is just Apollo ... ok ... so what?). And you know what? If you ask for an extract of the archives for one of these watches, Omega will be pleased to send you one...

- Someone said that it was a global production of 500 watches. Do we have the proof of that? No.

- Assuming that the global production would be of 500 watches, 100 watches are missing in the documents we found. Does someone have the proof of that number? No. Definitely.

- De Marchi in Turin received spare parts and spare movements. Do we have the proof of it? Yes.

- De Marchi has assembled Apollo Soyuz watches locally, out of the range of 'admitted' serial numbers. Do we have a proof of this? No, but it is more than probable... How many? Who knows? With the agreement of Omega? Who knows? Did Omega know it at that time? Who knows? Was it so dramatic for Omega? Guys, we're talking about 100 watches... not about a lunar module...

- In Italy, people bought those watches to authorized dealers, and they did know nothing about this strange De Marchi story. They just bought a watch.

- Years after, accordingly, some clients have bought the good ones (among the 400 produced in Biel), and other have bought the other ones (not produced in Biel). Just a matter of luck I think... And logically Omega doesn't deliver extracts for the other ones (how could they do?). And logically the owners of these watches are not very happy. Ok.

@Apollo-Soyuz Yes I speak italian, I've been living in Milan for 20 years, so we can speak italian, it will be a pleasure, I know your website, I know your arguments, I know your documents, I know your watch, and I know your strong conviction. Believe me, just enjoy your watch, and stop thinking that everything is due to an Omega mistake...

 

Obviously a watch that has been officially assembled by the factory has a different price than a watch that has been assembled by... someone with spare parts.

Just one last question: you have 2 Apollo Soyuz watches available for you. Same price. One is in the right range, the other one is out of range. Which watch do you buy? Please, please... and someone wrote here that I was naive...

But believe me: if someone finds an agreement tomorrow and Omega accepts to deliver extracts based on this new information, that will be only good news for the owners, and I will be the first one to be happy for them!!!! But at this stage, this is only a nice story.

 

I'm glad you have all this information about me, if so, you can also confirm what I'm saying and my good faith.

All Apollo-Soyuz watch were assembled by Demarchi

Nobody and above all I've talked about money, this, and you're free to not believe me, it's just a matter of principle!


Famous brands do not behave this way, I'm looking for answers and concrete solutions. I'm an omega customer.

My goal is not to force Omega to declare that the Apollo-Soyuz are a single big family but nothing else! I hope someone, and certainly more competent than me in the field of watches, have the urge and the time to catalog these Omega Apollo-Soyuz made in licensed ... and do a good job!

Everything else has already been confirmed in emails exchanged with Mr Brandon; Omega and DeMarchi they did several mistakes, this does not detract from the fact that the respinsability is always the Omega

 

So does anyone have an extract for an Apollo-Soyuz, that would settle this debate and justify where it was produced.

 

There seems to be quite a difference of opinion between the two main protagonists in this thread. @lowen states 400 watches were produced and assembled by Omega in Biel and @Apollo-Soyuz is adamant 500 were all assembled in Italy by De Marchi.

 

Yes, I have a recent extract but I am not at home.

 

@lowen
" De Marchi has assembled Apollo Soyuz watches locally, out of the range of 'admitted' serial numbers. Do we have a proof of this? No, but it is more than probable... How many? Who knows? With the agreement of Omega? Who knows? Did Omega know it at that time? Who knows? Was it so dramatic for Omega? Guys, we're talking about 100 watches... not about a lunar module..."

those 100 lost or unlisted clocks from Omaga-Demarchi are on the wrist of 100 Omega customers who 40 years ago year decided to contribute to the current success of this company.
Too simple to minimize!
If it had been Rolex to produce these 100 watches, they would have made a TV series...

 

Here is mine

 

I am sorry guys, some documents may not be disclosed on a forum.
But believe me: the invoices from Omega to De Marchi CLEARLY mention "Montre acier Apollo" for the 400 watches identified.
That means that these watches have been assembled by Omega in Switzerland.
How can we waste time discussing this point?

On another hand, I want to clarify my point of view, because after those 3 pages it seems that I'm fighting against something or someone.
Not at all. Really. And for those who know me and our work for the MWO book, they know this is never our objective.

And I confirm that I fully understand @Apollo-Soyuz stand point, 100%. I have already written this. For one simple reason. Sorry, for two simple reasons:

1) there is no doubt he is real passionate person, and he has dedicated plenty of time to this story, and I love this, sincerely,

2) he is not the cause of the problem!

As he correctly explained in his posts, he (together with maybe 99 other Omega clients, maybe less, again, nobody managed to establish the exact inventory of the De Marchi watches) bought an Apollo Soyuz watch to an Omega authorized dealer in Italy, exactly in the same way other guys bought an Apollo Soyuz watch to other dealers. His watch is not in the correct range. Others are.

And I have no doubt about his good faith. Really.
And I understand his deep willing of knowing the truth about his watch. Really.
And I would be more than happy to help him. Really.

But what can we do? Again, all this story is due to malfunctions between Omega and De Marchi in the 70s. Then each of us has his own appreciation about Omega or De Marchi responsibility, based on what each of us knows about the quality of their respective work at that time.

But this appreciation doesn't even matter, just because Omega CAN NOT certify a watch if they don't have a clear proof of the production. How could they do?

Mi dispiace, as Italian people would say ...

 

Why was the watch commemorating the joining of Soviet and US spacecraft released in Italy anyway?

Honest question.

 

Throwing a loose dial from a limited run/edition, into a standard watch doesn’t make it the limited run/edition watch.

Fitting a service snoopy/Japan racing/Gemini 4 to another modern Speedmaster, doesn’t make it the same as the LE.

 

I completely agree with your statement but it's my understanding that all original watches that had the radial dial are own by Nasa/US Government. The other 40 dials were not placed in watches but at some point Omega or an employee of Omega released them into the wild. According to what you are saying the watch that sold last month isn't considered a "real" watch?!?

 

"If you would like a separate letter stating that De Marchi were authorised to modify watches for the Italian market we are happy to do so".

Says it all.

Unless I'm missing something this is extremely straightforward. Omega manufactured 400 Soyuz watches at the factory and this is documented with a tight serial range.
It appears there are others outside of this serial range, which Omega records do not show as being in the official record.

1) There may have been a lose accord between Omega and the company in Italy to manufacture additional examples but 2) it's also possible it was done ad hoc in Italy without the consent/knowledge of head office. Without any documented proof you're relying on a lot of goodwill, candy floss and dreams to get people to accept 1), especially when we do have evidence that the distributor was authorised (in general) to modify standard watches.

Without documents or other proof it comes down to opinion. Mine is that this is a standard factory Speedmaster that has a dial swap/modification at a local distributor.

 

That wasn't just a radial dial, that was in a brushed Star case as well. It was a fully produced watch.

There are loose radial dials out there, some of which have been put into standard cases, but those are easily spotted.

 

the evidence is there and is specified in the agreements between the two companies Omega and De-Marchi. many talk about 400 clocks produced by Omega but from my research I have been unable to find more than 300 Apollo-Soyuz (including those out of range).
I confirm that only after the first Apollo-soyuz auctions, Omega's management tried to do a bit by saying that regular Apollo-Soyuz belonged to a precise range. How do those customers who bought Antiquorum two Apollo-Soyuz bought them?

OMEGA CH does not have a table that links the clock movement number to the engraved number on the bottom
On April 14 and 15, 2007, OMEGAMANIA, operated by Antiquorum, sold Apollo-Soyuz auction n. 2 as "original" by the same OMEGA motherboard but with serial numbers far beyond what stated on the official website (No. 39.927. 934 and 45,585,460).


The DeMarchi distributor with full confidence from Omega De-Marchi has been worried about hitting the number of times on the back of the watch!


In the 70s, 80s in Omega reigned in chaos, in those days Omega was not a giant as it is today and tried in all ways to sell its products ... as they did so many watches! In this case he entrusted the DeMarchi with the mandate to behave as best he believed ... for the good of the brand and the business. OMEGA in this case was not honest with its customers, handled the matter with great superficiality and little professionalism this does not honor her (imho).

 

maybe I've just arrived at the end but "sorry" means surrendering and confirming a bad job done by Omega and her local partner, De Marchi. I repeat, in my opinion you could catalog those Apollo-Soyuz watches (including those auctioned in 2007) and give an identity to these watches. I have the documents from Omega to De-Marchi 1975, the back of the watch is engraved with the progressive number and there are not two equal in the world, can I let it go? Omega and / or Demarchi managed the distribution in a bit of way and the Apollo-Soyuz were proof of it.