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New Speedmaster 3861 Side Profile - Production Variances Noted

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robinhook
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Hello OF Members!

I picked up a New Speedmaster 3861 Hesalite from my local AD today, and noticed something after coming home that makes my heart sink a bit.

One of the key point I look for when I evaluate whether the case has been refinished is how thick (or wide) the polished surface on the non-crown side of the case. I’m talking about the surface that goes across the case side with the “twist” of the lug, the focus point is of course at the middle point of the case when this surface is at its narrowest. If it is really thin, then likely the case has been refinished as metal were taken out. And this also leaves very little room for future polishing.

I didn’t pay too much attention about this particular point when inspecting the watch in the store, thinking there’s no way the case is refinished when buying it new from the AD. But taking it home and especially compare it to my other Speedy (a modded 1863 sapphire sandwich), I noticed how thin the surface is at the middle point of the case for the 3861. See the comparison below
2845059D-0F45-42A1-B76A-8CAC5C16D8DC.jpeg


I started doing research about other pictures of the same model. The clearest one I found is here, borrow the picture from @calibre561, I think his watch obviously has a thicker surface there.
A397F3CC-AA40-48BC-B885-6D209B5C50A9.jpeg


Some other observation include this one, a screenshot from this YouTube review, at 14:05, a 3861 hesalite (the further one) and a sapphire one (the closer one) were placed side by side. And it looks pretty clear to me that they have different width on this polished surface, the heaalite one clearly is thicker than the sapphire one, indicating the case finishing may have some variability...?
758A0A7C-B2C8-495E-8C8E-FDB8196D066B.png


So question for members with this watch:
1. How’s your side profile look like, is it close to the thicker ones like Calibre561’s or thinner like mine?
2. Is it possible that an AD is selling a refinished watch as new? [edit 3/28: very unlikely]
3. Is it possible that Omega case finishing has such a wide variance? [edit 3/28: confirmed. For all doubts about new vs old cases, lights/angle/perception/illusion, below is the side by side of two 3861 Hesalite models on bracelet]
C451B640-E09C-4435-B0A3-7D64105EF6C4.jpeg

4. Should I demand a return or replacement for the watch (unworn at this point), Do you think this is unreasonable?

thanks,
Robin
Edited:
 
gbesq
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Without fully addressing your inquiry, the first question that comes to my mind is why would any AD risk losing their reputation -- as well as their franchise with Omega -- for one watch?
 
robinhook
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gbesq gbesq
Without fully addressing your inquiry, the first question that comes to my mind is why would any AD risk losing their reputation -- as well as their franchise with Omega -- for one watch?
I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the rules AD needs to follow, or what would cause them to lose the franchise. I'm also not sure, and particularly interested in understanding how they handle returned watches. Say if I return this one, what will they do with it? Possibly sending it back to Omega for some refinishing and sell it again?

I'm not assuming anything, and it could very much be the variation of production, in which case I think it's just bad luck to me to pick up a thinner case watch. But I think that's also worth discussing. To my eyes my watch has a thinner polished surface that is almost just as half as some of the thicker ones i see online. That would leave some watches better to withstand future polishing than others, and potentially affecting resell values.
 
befobe
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Not polished, from 2010: a very thin layer too... Could it be the manufacturing variations?
20210327_094922.jpg
 
eugeneandresson
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It’s a totally different case. Ie 105.012 case.

edit: as such you can’t compare the old watch to the new watch to make conclusions.
Edited:
 
S.H.
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Probably different case manufacturers, like in the old days.

Cost of specifically refinishing a midcase up to the standard of a new watch may not be negligible compared to ordering a new service midcase, so I don't see an AD playing games.
 
STANDY
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So you think a new watch has a refinished case comparing it to the old model ?
 
Donn Chambers
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It doesn’t look obvious at all to me that your case is any different than other new Speedmaster cases — unless you have photos from exactly the same orientation and/or take measurements, cases and chamfers can appear different due to lighting and reflection. It has been discussed extensively that the new case is finished differently than the old (i.e., reports of razor sharp edges, etc).

It makes no sense to me that an AD would refinish the case of a brand new watch. At the most, they might buff it with a cape-cod cloth.

If it does continue to bother you, take it back to the store (or another AD if you really don’t trust them) and compare to another new Speedmaster and see if there really is a difference. Of course, if you go in certain that it is incorrect, you are already biased and will likely see differences that others may not see.
 
gnuyork
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First of all the 1863 and 3861 cases are different shapes... and secondly I've never paid attention to this, but I have the Hesalite 3861 and mine looks more like yours. I seriously doubt it has been refinished because I got mine in the very early days when these were still scarce, in fact I was the first to get one in my city, making a return and refinish very unlikely.

In the example you pulled from Caliber561 - that one is a sapphire, yours is a Hesalite, so maybe they have slight differences in finishing as they also have slight differences in how the crystal is attached to the case (from what I understand) the reason why you can't merely swap crystals.

Your Hesalite and mine look the same regarding that polished surface.
Edited:
 
Badhabit59
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Doesn't Omega manufacture all their own cases in this day and age? I would be amazed if they were using 3rd party cases, but I don't know. That being said, I certainly do see a difference. You would have to make your comparison to an identical reference to be sure. Good luck.
 
Caliber561
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I measured the vertical height of the bezel at its thinnest point on my watch, and it's ~0.75mm. (I don't have calipers, though).
Also, I have pictures of another sapphire I've handled in person, and it does seem like the bevel on that one is indeed slightly slimmer, so the variation is present for both sapphire and hesalite models. Given that there are clearly at least two distinct types, I wonder if the "sharp edges" reported by some are specific to a certain case variation.

Btw, the brushing on the OP's 3861 does seem to be of the same consistency as those fresh from the factory, so IMO that's a +1 for the watch not being refinished.
 
robinhook
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
It’s a totally different case. Ie 105.012 case.
STANDY STANDY
So you think a new watch has a refinished case comparing it to the old model ?

Thanks both, I'm aware that the 3861 has a new case. I meant to notice the difference at first by comparing it to the old case, but then still noticing differences just looking at the new 3861 cases.
 
eugeneandresson
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robinhook robinhook
Thanks both, I'm aware that the 3861 has a new case. I meant to notice the difference at first by comparing it to the old case, but then still noticing differences just looking at the new 3861 cases.

Apples to apples 😀 I think the new case is fabulous. Very close to my NOS 145.012, and I love the difference between eg the snoopy/a11 to the old one. I’m glad they changed it...

Do you have access to another 3861 Speedy?
 
robinhook
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Caliber561 Caliber561
I measured the vertical height of the bezel at its thinnest point on my watch, and it's ~0.75mm. (I don't have calipers, though).
Also, I have pictures of another sapphire I've handled in person, and it does seem like the bevel on that one is indeed slightly slimmer, so the variation is present for both sapphire and hesalite models. Given that there are clearly at least two distinct types, I wonder if the "sharp edges" reported by some are specific to a certain case variation.

Btw, the brushing on the OP's 3861 does seem to be of the same consistency as those fresh from the factory, so IMO that's a +1 for the watch not being refinished.

Thank you for chiming in! I made an attempt to take a picture at the same angle as yours, here's a side by side.
Image (1).jpeg


To my eyes, the difference is still pretty obvious. At the 80 mark, your watch's polished bevel is slightly wider than the flat surface above it, while mine is narrower. I don't have the tool to accurately measure the bevel in mm, unfortunately.
Edited:
 
robinhook
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
Apples to apples 😀 I think the new case is fabulous. Very close to my NOS 145.012, and I love the difference between eg the snoopy/a11 to the old one. I’m glad they changed it...

Do you have access to another 3861 Speedy?

I've posted another picture that's more comparable. I'm thinking about taking it to the AD and compare it to a few others they have in stock. They only have this one on bracelet, which is one of the main attraction to me. The others are on straps. They do have 1 sapphire as I recall. Will report back if I go there.
 
robinhook
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gnuyork gnuyork
First of all the 1863 and 3861 cases are different shapes... and secondly I've never paid attention to this, but I have the Hesalite 3861 and mine looks more like yours. I seriously doubt it has been refinished because I got mine in the very early days when these were still scarce, in fact I was the first to get one in my city, making a return and refinish very unlikely.

In the example you pulled from Caliber561 - that one is a sapphire, yours is a Hesalite, so maybe they have slight differences in finishing as they also have slight differences in how the crystal is attached to the case (from what I understand) the reason why you can't merely swap crystals.

Your Hesalite and mine look the same regarding that polished surface.

Thanks my friend, this is reassuring. Seems the consensus is that it's very unlikely that AD is refinishing it, which leaves the only possibility with manufacturing variances. I'm not sure that's because the Hesalite vs Sapphire case. As @Caliber561 mentioned he noticed variances between sapphire examples, and also in this picture the trend is flipped: hesalite is thicker than the sapphire.
758A0A7C-B2C8-495E-8C8E-FDB8196D066B.png


I think now the real question becomes whether the collectors will favor one way or another.
 
gnuyork
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robinhook robinhook
I think now the real question becomes whether the collectors will favor one way or another.
I'm not really a collector, but I favor mine 👍... seriously though I think I prefer the thinner bevel. I think it looks sleeker. But the reality is, it's hardly noticeable on my wrist. I literally had to take it off and look very close to even see what you were referring to initially. Interesting though.
 
Pazzo
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robinhook robinhook
..............

To my eyes, the difference is still pretty obvious. ......

It also could be the different sized pics, angle/tilt, light, shadows etc etc.
 
robinhook
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gnuyork gnuyork
I'm not really a collector, but I favor mine 👍... seriously though I think I prefer the thinner bevel. I think it looks sleeker. But the reality is, it's hardly noticeable on my wrist. I literally had to take it off and look very close to even see what you were referring to initially. Interesting though.

Really appreciate your positive thinking! Totally make sense. If it’s a keeper, then I’d prefer the sleeker case too. There’s only potential problem if at some point the watch will be sold. As thin lug/case is generally negatively received by the buyer.

But I guess it won’t be a big deal if the case is designed this way. Production variances tho is another thing. To me this level of variance shouldn’t happen on a $6-7k watch.
 
robinhook
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Pazzo Pazzo
It also could be the different sized pics, angle/tilt, light, shadows etc etc.
Well... In that particular comparison I attempted to take the picture from the same angel, and zoomed both to the same size. So those two factor should have been addressed. Light is different I know, but in both pictures sufficiently shows the total width of the bevel.
 
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