Learn How To Fish

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Great thread and very helpful.

One problem I worry about is I heard in the 1960s onwards the best quality Taiwan Omega and Rolex fakes were so good that manufacturer experts could only tell real from fake from the metal quality under microscope, as the better ones had copied the whole watch so well.

That may be old urban legend. Would be good to know if this is nonsense.
 
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Great thread and very helpful.

One problem I worry about is I heard in the 1960s onwards the best quality Taiwan Omega and Rolex fakes were so good that manufacturer experts could only tell real from fake from the metal quality under microscope, as the better ones had copied the whole watch so well.

That may be old urban legend. Would be good to know if this is nonsense.

A urban myth for vintage 1960s

Plausible for modern Rolex nowadays, it’s getting to the stage a watchmaker has to strip the watch down
This might help
http://nickhacko.blogspot.com/2012/05/tough-times-ahead-for-collectors-of.html
 
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Great thread. A wealth of knowledge here. Thank you for sharing!
 
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If you see a watch on eBay that might be what you’re looking for, and at a price within your budget, my practice is to spend a little bit of time looking at the strap, particularly if it’s leather (which is my preferred choice).

In my limited experience, the 'professional' eBay seller often puts on a new strap, and frequently adds a faux (Omega) buckle. This, I’ve assumed, is intended to entice the prospective purchaser to look to buy a ready to wear nice looking watch, with a nice strap and buckle and, possibly pay a little less attention to the watch face, case, movement and hands.

Apart from the fact that I like to choose my own strap, nearly all my 'finds', and I only venture into the sub-£400 market on eBay, have come with used (in some cases very worn) old straps.

In fact, the older and more disreputable the strap, I’ve surmised that it’s more likely that the watch hasn’t been the subject of the doubtful cosmetic practices that we read about and may well have been in someone’s sock drawer for the last twenty years.

In both the attached photos (attached to the seller’s particulars) the watches were significantly better than the straps.


Very good insight!
 
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Just a further two cents worth after reading many threads in which new collectors seeking guidance are sometimes advised to look at the 'Private Sales' section of this Forum.

All well and good but It’s not entirely straightforward, even there. Posters/sellers on OF always give good descriptions and excellent photos, particularly of the face, case and movement. You can probably rule out the risk of frankenwatches, redials (unless stated) or worse.

As a lower end (financially) collector with a liking for 50s & 60s watches I’ve never spent a great deal but even buying here, adopt the same mindset as you might when you buy on eBay or elsewhere.

In recent years, I’ve bought twice. The first was a 65 year old bumper. It looked as good when I got it as it had in the photos, it ran well and was just what I’d hoped it would be. I had it serviced and cleaned and my repairer confirmed everything that the seller had asserted. It is still running well and I remain a very satisfied customer.

The second purchase was comparatively inexpensive. The seller advertised that the watch hadn’t been serviced recently and that a hand had been changed. He sent the original removed hand with the watch.

It ran beautifully initially but then stopped. My watch repairer advised on parts that were need for this 63 year old timepiece. I sourced original spares from Finland, Poland and Holland. My repairer repaired, restored and serviced it and it now runs perfectly.

I have absolutely no criticism of the seller and I’m certainly not complaining. It is just what can happen when one buys an old watch either on OF or elsewhere. But I spent more on the parts and servicing than I spent on the original purchase. The upside is that I found the parts and that the watch could be, and was, repaired.
 
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Great rundown with lots of info. Thank you very much for taking the time to do this. You really do have to take your time and go through the different aspects of the watch to ensure you don’t get duped. Although at some point I find getting too picky can prevent you from getting a piece you might otherwise thoroughly enjoy, even if it is not perfectly untouched. I think you should buy what you love and make sure you are not getting scammed but after that go for it and enjoy!
 
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One last thought then I’m out... I think everyone should ask themselves if the watch they are buying is really going to be collectible and increase in value. A fair amount of us probably buy mostly things we want to wear and I know I personally usually don’t buy something planning to sell it and so “value” or being 100% untouched original is really not critical down the line. The big issue is knowing (being aware of) what you are getting and whether or not the price is fair.
 
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I have had a few newer members asking me for advice on how to spot a good vintage watch and what they should be on guard for. I've decided to post a little primer on how to assess vintage watches (primarily Omegas, though the principles could just as well apply to other marques). I hope this will come in handy for especially newer members, who could need some assistance in the chase of their dream watch.


There is, at any given time, a huge amount of vintage Omegas for sale. A very, very limited number of them are outright fakes, more often it's the condition of the (genuine) parts that makes the difference between an attractive purchase and an unattractive one. So how do you determine if a watch is in good condition? Have a look at the following parts:


1. Case: This should be in a condition where the original facets are still clearly visible. The original brushing on any brushed parts should still be visible too. Places where this is very visible: Bezel, lug chamfers, case back medallion (if any).

Consider these two Constellations:



The first one has razor-sharp edges on the lugs and the bezel is perfect too. On the other subject, the lugs have lost definition and the bezel has been rounded by polishing. This greatly reduces the overall impact of the design and should be taken into consideration, were you to consider a purchase. Note that most old watches have been polished at some point, so while having an unpolished specimen is great, one that has been polished could just as well be a well-maintained, old watch.


Here is an example of how correct brushing can affect the look of a watch:



This is actually a before-and-after photo of one of the members' Seamaster 168.022, which had been incorrectly brushed at some point. Look into how the polished and brushed parts of the watch you are looking for are supposed to look like and this will help you uncover no little amount of attempts to cover up bodge-jobs.


2. Dial. This is the focal point of any watch, and should have your full attention.

2.1. Redials... This is pretty much a no-no for a collector, even though there are a few cases where tolerances are higher. In general, redials are rather common and a lot of them were done more or less on a routinely basis during the early days of your watch.

A redial can be partial, and for instance be the addition of some text or the restoration of a part of a dial. Alternatively, it could be complete and consist of either having the dial plate cleared completely and then repainted (with varying degrees of success) or consist of getting a completely new dial put in the watch. The latter can be impossible to confirm and if done with the correct dial generally doesn't detract from the overall look or value. The former, the reprinted dial, is rather common. Unscrupulous vendors will try to talk around it by claiming that the dial is "original" - as in "the same bit of metal", but that's bollocks. And they know it.


Here are two Omega Seamaster Calendars for your enjoyment:



Notice how fine the text on the first dial is and how it... isn't on the second one? That's because the second one is a cruddy redial. Knowing how the font looks like on the reference you are researching will help you quite a lot, especially on Seamasters. Where can you find this info? On Omegaforums, naturally. Do a search and spend some time smarting up. Other tells on the second example are the minute marks that are of varying thickness and length and the light green lume plots. The original radium lume would have been washed off when the dial was cleaned. A final - and really rather obvious - tip: If it's an old watch, there is little chance that the dial will look as virgin white as the lower one. The light, rather even spotting "suffered" by the top one is typical of this particular reference and a good sign of authenticity. Get to know how your targetted watch usually patinates and it will help you in your assesment.

Dial patina will be the focus of the next post before I'll move onto other parts of the watch.

Part 2: Dial Patina.
Part 3: Luminous markers and hands.
Part X: Fishing on eBay.
Wonderful information. Thank you.
I love an even, heavy patina. To me, it adds character to a watch and makes it absolutely unique. Most of my watches at this time are pocket all over 100 years old and I love the occasional crack wondering how it may have arrived on the dial. I rotate wearing both pocket and wrist. I have one pocket NOS Hamilton that is 110 years old and virtually brand new. I never wear it. Not because I’m worried about putting the first miles on it, but because it has no “character” to me. Each watch has its own story, and I like that.
Thanks again for this wonderful group.
 
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This is fantastic! Thanks for taking the time to put together such a thorough guide.
 
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A great reminder for all, novice and experienced collectors alike. Well done, mate.
 
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I am new to the forum and vintage watches as well. Thanks so much to the OP (and everyone else's contributions), such a great resource for someone overwhelmed like myself!
 
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Stick around, learn from Troels (ConElPueblo) and others and before you know it, you'll be broke, divorced and out of work.
 
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I am new to the Forum and was stuck doing all the research on my own. Stumbling onto this goldmine has been wonderful as I can now go out and look on eBay/chrono24/antiqueshops with much more confidence. I can also slowly drive my partner crazy with all the vintage watch terminology!! I'm sure she finds it charming ... 😁

Thank you ConElPueblo for generously taking the time to put this together
 
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Can I ask if this went through re-dial or retouch? I notice that this dial only “swiss” and not “swiss made”. Most of the examples I find on the internet is “swiss made”.

 
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I am still learning like a lot of people in this quest. One of the things that seems consistent throughout the different eras on these is the script logos and so on. For example, on this one pictured the word “Seamaster” and even “Omega” are very heavy compared to solidly original ones you see. Also I have learned to look at the word Seamaster very very carefully and when you look at those original ones there’s a giveaway in the shape of the letter “m”. I am glad you inquired about the word being only “Swiss” Rather than Swiss maid because I myself and looking for an answer in that regard. Most of the ones that I see which are a few that say just Swiss always appear to have some other indication of redialing. I bought a semester recently and solid gold because I couldn’t resist it from the early 50s and it does not have Swiss or Swiss maid on the bottom of the dial. Someone out there In non Omega Forum land said they have seen ones like this but I kind of doubt it myself. Sometimes these things just get scrubbed off the dial when improperly cleaned. Do you make a form is in valuable for this type of information because there are collectors and dealers on here with beaucoup years of experience looking at these things.
 
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Thanks for all the info, certainly makes trawling through ebay a lot more fun...
Ebay: fake, redial, fake, wtf is that?, uh nice no wait fake.....
😀
 
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Great and very informative thread! Thank you for taking the time to do this, it means a lot for us newbies!