Sorry, used the Image URL option - my bad

 

No problem, thanks for the photos.

It's not one of the 'Australian' fakes that we've seen.

Lots of positives in my opinion - case looks great, crowns seem to be the correct UG versions, correct narrow font on the bezel and you even have the correct brick link bracelet ( 22mm 'U' end links?).

Aside from the obvious fact that it's missing the Polerouter Sub text, my only concern would be that your lume, both on the dial and in the hands, looks very fresh and tidy for a watch that is almost 60 years old.

It would be interesting to see the movement and the inside of the case back.

Are the case reference and serial numbers present on the outside of the case back?

 

Dear Mazoue,

thats what i was thinking to, thanks for the confirmation!
Yes should be the bracelet version you mentioned.

Honestly, the pictures were sent to me via a friend. I am planning to purchase it. I could only ask for further pictures.

 

EDIT:
received more pictures:

 

Those pictures look reassuring and I see that the case back has the gap which we don't see on the fakes.

Are the case reference and serial numbers present on the outside of the case back?

 

I note that this watch is in a forthcoming auction. Are you connected with the auction house or a potential buyer?

Based on the very hi-res images available, I would say that the dial has been relumed because I think you can just about make out the original tiny lume dots underneath each relumed marker.

On a positive note, it looks like the case reference and serial numbers are present on the case back.

 

Yes, it is part of an online auction. Yes, I am planning to bid on it.

 

€8300 inc fees, reasonably cheap with the bracelet.

 

How funny, I thought quite the opposite.

That dial had very little appeal to me without the 'Polerouter Sub' designation.

To my eye, the watch did not have the distinctive and unique charm of the examples we see with the lume dots on the hour markers, the partially lumed inner bezel and the asymmetric crowns.

 

Here’s another one that’s just been sold in Geneva https://catalog.antiquorum.swiss/en/lots/universal-ref-20369-1-polerouter-sub-lot-324-295?page=1&q=
I’m amazed by the amount of variation in these very early examples. This one has twin large crowns and all silver text.

 

I agree that the amount of variation is fascinating; probably more variation than any other Polerouter reference. It makes it very difficult to determine what variation is genuine and what has occurred since these watches left the factory.

There are certain characteristics that I would prefer to see however. The fact that this one was missing the Polerouter Sub text was presumably a significant factor in the relatively low hammer price.

 

Interesting example on eBay although a bit tired. No Polerouter Sub text, fully lumed hour markers and lumed triangle. Looks legit though. Case, crowns etc ok and numbers present on case back.

I really really wish I had recorded all of the serial numbers of these as that way we might have been able to spot patterns.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-UNIVERSAL-GENEVE-DIVER-AUTOMATIC-MEN-WATCH-/401965661829Purchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network

 

I purchased this watch. The serial begins with 203. Year 1959 or so. This watch appears to be of those 1st batch of Polerouter Subs that most here discussed, the true 1st execution. I posted some pics for those interested in seeing one up close and personal.

 

I can't see any reason to think that the watch is not completely correct.

For some reason, we just seem to see a great deal of variation for this particular reference e.g. here we have

- Symmetric crowns (asymmetric seem to be more common and were spotted in a recently unearthed UG catalogue)
- No Polerouter Sub text (I suppose it is possible that this is a service dial)
- Fully lumed hour markers (I can't see any sign of lume dots being underneath)
- Fully lumed triangle on the inner bezel but with no other lume
- Your case reference and serial are on opposite sides of the case back, where I've seen them immediately below each other on other watches

 

Something unusual i can see is it has a caliber 215-9, whereas later serials are still running a caliber 215 (215-9 replaced the 215)...
I would not expect them to start with a 215-9, then move to producing them with a 215, then back to a 215-9...

 

The example with the Tiffany signed dial sold at Antiquorum in 2010 is currently for sale on eBay.

I have posted the pictures below for posterity, which to the seller's credit are numerous and of decent quality.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...ffany-Co-Dive-Wristwatch-RARE-NR/202905457461Purchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network

 

Personally, I have few doubts that it's a genuine first generation Sub.

In fact, there are several points that do seem consistent with a watch sold in the US including the text stamped on the case back, a 17 jewelled movement and the 'HON' import mark on the balance cock.

The dial is missing the Polerouter Sub text which raises questions but we've seen similar examples and it appears to be a genuine factory dial. It's possible that these were service replacements. It has possibly been relumed but, if so, it seems to have been done a long time ago.

What makes the watch particularly unusual is the Tiffany signed dial (first image below).

This same Tiffany text in 'cowboy' font is seen on a handful of Omega Speedmasters. Phillips sold one in May 2019 (second image below) and their research, supported by Omega archival information, revealed that three similar examples were produced in 1970 and delivered to Tiffany.

The signatures are certainly similar but is it plausible that the Sub that would have been produced in around 1963 at the latest would have the same signature as the Speedmasters produced in 1970?

 

And here is an apparent Tiffany signature from 1965/66 (according to extract papers).
https://omegaforums.net/threads/speedmaster-tiffany-dial.24673/
If it is all legitimate, I guess that would date the Sub dial text to at least some time after 1965...

 

If you believe the dial to perhaps be a service dial and the font of Tiffany & co to be later perhaps mid 1960’s maybe even later, why would radium still be used at the factory to make a service dial when radium dials ceased to be used in swiss watches after the dangers in radium was revealed after 1962-63? The seller states the dial has a very high Geiger reading and the UV pic is correct so I seriously doubt this dial to be a service dial of some kind made that time range of mid to late 60s or 1970. Dials just weren’t made with radium anymore later.

 

A 1970 "service dial" doesn't necessarily mean the dial was made in 1970 - It could have sat in the parts cupboard until required.
IIRC around this time Tiffany & Co. were printing their own name to the dials, not the factories.
(At least apparently for other manufacturers, no idea about UG since there are so few that have surfaced).