Basic watchmaking tips - Oiling Part 1

Posts
2,327
Likes
2,539
I'm considering one of these new watches that has a built in cleaner, oiler, and adjuster.

 
Posts
1,117
Likes
9,226
I'm considering one of these new watches that has a built in cleaner, oiler, and adjuster.

that's just goofy
 
Posts
2,327
Likes
2,539
Well hope my juvenile humor didn't kill the thread, I'd like to learn more about the various grades of lubricants and their origin.

Not long ago I did some searching to find a additive used in Pellgun oil marketed by Crosman and found it to be a monmolecular compound (monolec) invented in the 1930's for high compression aircraft engines, and still used today in crancase oils for heavy duty marine and off road engines.

Finding the product safety sheet was crucial to tracking down the history of that oil and additive.

I haven't found a grade of that oil that I'd consider usable for watches, but you never know.
 
Posts
27,693
Likes
70,379
I haven't found a grade of that oil that I'd consider usable for watches, but you never know.

Watch oils have different properties to normal oils. For example with a normal oil, you want it to spread to every possible place it can go - not a good thing in watches as oils should stay in the location where they are applied, and we go to great lengths to make that happen.

There are a lot of threads on various forums with discussions on using alternative oils - motor oils, cooking oils, etc. If you are working on your own watches, then use whatever oil you feel will do the job - it's your watch after all. But professionals have a duty of care to their customers, as well as requirements from brands to maintain parts accounts, etc., so you won't find a lot of discussion about alternative oils with people who do this for a living.

I know many hobbyists find the pricing of the latest watch oils to be very expensive, but in a professional setting it's simply a cost of doing business, and in the big picture not a significant one.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
2,327
Likes
2,539
The amount of oil used in servicing a watch is extremely tiny.
The same goes for servicing an air rifle seals and o-rings. Crosman charges outrageous prices for fractions of an ounce of pellgun oil which if bought as monolec by the quart is more expensive than common motor oils but per ounce is a small fraction of the cost of pellgun brand oil.

Thats not the point I hoped to convey.
The monolec additive fills in microscopic fissures in the metal surfaces and leaves a near friction free coating. I would think that a proper grade of a monolec oil would be perfect for watches, allowing a watch to run for decades between servicings.

"as oils should stay in the location where they are applied, and we go to great lengths to make that happen."
In reading up on the early use of whale oil it was stated that whale oil is in fact a wax rather than an oil though thin enough to look and feel like an oil. This allowed it to stay in place as you wish it to.
 
Posts
2,219
Likes
4,945
It's an interesting idea but I'll try to give a little context.

I doubt that any crankcase oil used in engines would be at all suitable for use in a watch movement. Have a look at a Stribeck diagram. I'm not a tribologist but have studied this in the past as an aircraft engineer and fairly recently as a watchmaker.

Motor oils and similar are used in the hydrodynamic range as they are usually working in plain bearings at high speed - basically, they build up a film which is thicker than any surface roughness and the rotating part is supported on the oil film.

As you start using slower parts, you move across into mixed lubrication for which you need very smooth surfaces - I'd put a needle roller or ball bearing in this category. Al might have something to say about that with his history.

Then you get down into boundary lubrication as the parts move more slowly. This is where a watch works. Surface roughness is not so critical because of the way the oil works.

You'll see all the above if you study the Stribeck diagram.

We all think about viscosity of oils but they're of far less importance for boundary layer lubrication. They're more or less, the be all and end all for hydrodynamic.

What's important for us is the ability of the oil to form a boundary layer and stay in place. Now we're reaching the limit of my knowledge but essentially, the oil forms a soap on the surface of each part in order that the parts can slide with the minimum of friction. You can do that in various ways but, I'll leave it there as I'm going on a bit.

So, what do we do? We leave it to the watch oil specialists like Moebius and pay what they want...

Cheers, Chris
 
Posts
27,693
Likes
70,379
The amount of oil used in servicing a watch is extremely tiny.
The same goes for servicing an air rifle seals and o-rings. Crosman charges outrageous prices for fractions of an ounce of pellgun oil which if bought as monolec by the quart is more expensive than common motor oils but per ounce is a small fraction of the cost of pellgun brand oil.

Thats not the point I hoped to convey.
The monolec additive fills in microscopic fissures in the metal surfaces and leaves a near friction free coating. I would think that a proper grade of a monolec oil would be perfect for watches, allowing a watch to run for decades between servicings.

"as oils should stay in the location where they are applied, and we go to great lengths to make that happen."
In reading up on the early use of whale oil it was stated that whale oil is in fact a wax rather than an oil though thin enough to look and feel like an oil. This allowed it to stay in place as you wish it to.

As Chris has suggested, filling in microscopic fissures is not a big concern in watches. In terms of cost, it's a few cents per watch serviced with these expensive oils, so again not really a concern.

On the subject of whale oil, well that's before my time but you will know it if you have some in an old watch - it smells pretty terrible when you get your face in there to disassemble.

But I was referring more to surface treatments that are applied during service to keep oils from spreading inside a watch (epilame coating) in a very extensive manner at the factory when the movement was made, and done in a more limited way to specific components. Also the use of thixotropic lubrication on the escapement.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
2,327
Likes
2,539
I suspect the waxy nature of whale oil gives it the thixotropic property you speak of. Only contact with moving parts under stress makes it act like a liquid at normal temperatures, Whatever escapes from the holes becoming semi solid so it doesn't migrate to foul the hair spring or cause other problems.

Silicone oils seem to be the modern equivalent. the only silicone oils I've used in recent years have been those recommended for my airsoft guns, but these seem far too thick for use in a watch.

I'll be ordering some specific watch oils soon. I found one lower cost brand said to be for pocket watches and of course the Moebius oil intended for wrist watches.
I found only one site with the safety sheets for Moebius oils and it requires registration and payment for downloads. If I can't find a free download site for this document, and I'm sure there's one out there, I may go ahead and join that site.
 
Posts
2,327
Likes
2,539
I believe registration to download from here is free: http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils.

This one doesn't require registration: https://www.beco-technic.com/sicherheitsdatenblaetter?___store=en&___from_store=en.

Thanks, just what I needed.
I sent in a registration request to Moebius.

PS
No joy on the registration request. They only allow those who deal in their products to register. I'll try some other sites.
Edited:
 
Posts
1,617
Likes
8,652
Some time ago I posted some basic tips on cleaning to assist some of the people here who are learning watchmaking. Here is that post for reference:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-cleaning.56365/#post-696021

This is the second post on basic watchmaking tips, but this is on oiling. One of the most critical things a watchmaker does is apply lubrication to the various parts of the movement that require it. Oiling tends to become a heated topic with watchmakers, so I am just showing my way of doing things, and I’ll explain why I think they are appropriate. As always, I will listen to any well reasoned argument for a better or different way, but if anyone wants to argue for the sake or arguing, please find another thread thanks. 😉

On the topic of which oils to use, since that is often an even more heated topic, I’ll simply say that for the most part I follow the manufacturer’s recommendations. I’ve seen people argue oils endlessly, some saying they never go bad, others saying you can just use motor oil, etc. For me using modern synthetic oils that are recommended by the brands has given good results for me and my customers. If you are working on your own watches and want to conduct long term experiments with how different oils perform, that’s fine but keep in mind that’s not the situation most professional watchmakers are in. We have a duty of care to the customer, and quite frankly don’t have the time to experiment and have things potentially go wrong.

So one of the first things we need to look at is what do you need to do your oiling. For me it’s this:



I have 2 sets of oil cups with agate wells, both with individual covers on each well. You decant oil from the oil bottles using a clean probe of some kind (I use a clean, polished wire that I keep just for this purpose) and as you can see I have used a marker to write the type of oil or grease on each lid. Agate wells are preferred since they don’t get scratched easily, and having a cover on each oil well means that you only have to expose the one you are using to the air – the kind that have a cover for all 4 wells expose them all when you are just getting oil ore grease from just one, so I don’t recommend those. Of course the lid is kept closed at all times except when you are actually getting oil. I flip the lid open, dip my oiler in the oil, flip the lid closed, and apply the oil.

It’s a good idea to track how often you change the oil in your oil cups. Over time the oil will oxidize and become contaminated, so I personally change the oils every week on the same day. I realize that for a hobbyist this may be extreme, so I would recommend decanting the smallest amount of oil you can into your oil cups so you are not wasting much when you change the oils. Your oil supply should be stored in a cool, dark place.

You may also note a large white block with 2 oilers stuck in it. This block is foam that I used to clean the oiler between uses. It’s made by Bergeon, and does a much better job of cleaning the oiler than say pith wood does, and leaves no residue on the oiler like pith wood can. I do sometimes take steps to “pre-clean” my oiler after applying certain greases to save this block a bit, so for example when I’m installing braking grease in a mainspring barrel, I clean it off in another piece of foam before I stick in this block for final cleaning. I actually recycle the small square pieces of white foam that come in mainspring packages for this:



The next thing is the oilers themselves. I almost exclusively use dip oilers, so like an old quill pen I have to dip the oiler in the oil to pick up oil to apply. There are so called automatic oilers, and I do have one I use occasionally for oiling non-shock and “fixed” cap jewels, but these do have drawbacks:




These have a reservoir inside them, and a plunger that pushes oil into the space between the hole jewel and the cap jewel. The difficulty comes with properly cleaning these of old oils, and I feel they provide less control over the amount of oil applied.

So dip oilers come in different configurations. They can even be home made, but the three that I have used are the types that follow, with the first being what are commonly advertised as “Swiss made” oilers and are often sold in sets of 4 different sizes:



The tip is very bulb-like, and sometimes has small flats on the side (honestly I’m not sure if this came this way or if I stoned the flats on it at some point). Using these as they come, they are crude and I find don’t provide the control that I want. The next step up is the proper Bergeon version of these cheap oilers:



You can see that the tip is more of a fan shape, and is much more flat. These provide much more control over the amount of oil you pick up. So why is that important? The most basic way of controlling how much oil you apply, is to control how much you pick up. In many ways whatever you pick up is what will be applied, except for a small film left behind on the oiler. This is particularly true of less viscous oils, and the transfer happens almost instantly, so it’s difficult to control how much comes off the oiler – controlling how much goes on will give you more control over the whole process.

So I don’t use either of these regularly, and haven’t for a number of years now. I currently use the Bergeon “ergonomic” oiler:



As you can see, the shape of the tip is very different. First it is far more refined than the other two by a long shot – everything is finely machined where the others look like they were made using a forge and anvil. Second, the shape is much more conducive to controlling the amount of oil picked up. I have picked up some oil to show that the flat portion of the tip can pick-up a rather small amount of oil – this is the smallest of the oilers that they offer. Now these are much more expensive than the others – those a few dollars each and these are $35 or so the last time I remember buying one. They are also somewhat fragile, so over time you will bend and eventually break the tip – I just broke one I had been using for over a year this past week. But the control these provide, and the fact that when I break one I can open a new one and it will be exactly the same as the one I just used (not always the case with the others) makes these worth the money for me personally.

Not long ago I responded to someone on another forum who said they tried these and hated them. They went on to say they could barely pick up any oil with these and the oil they did pick up didn’t seem to transfer well. After some conversation it appeared that the user wanted to be able to pick up a large (for watchmaking) drop of oil and then “wipe off the excess” on the side of their oil cup. As you can probably guess, there’s no reason to do things this way when you can pick up the correct amount of oil with these right off the bat. The problem of the oil not transferring I was able to pinpoint to the user dipping the oiler too deep in the oil. If you get oil past the flat area, and get it onto the narrow part, the oiler will tend to hold onto the oil rather than transfer it. That’s why I picked up a typical amount on the photo above to show you how they are used. Once I explained all this, the user came back eventually and said they now preferred these to the older style oilers.

So this is a start on this topic but I do intend to add more as time permits.

Cheers, Al

Intresting and informative post ! Thanks
 
Posts
343
Likes
535
Really instructing topic, thanks ! It is exactly why I joined this forum. Would love to learn basic servicing skills, is it possible as an autodidact ?
 
Posts
27,693
Likes
70,379
Really instructing topic, thanks ! It is exactly why I joined this forum. Would love to learn basic servicing skills, is it possible as an autodidact ?

Glad you enjoyed the post. It depends on what you mean by basic servicing skills.

There is a general misunderstanding with collectors I think, in that they believe that simple watches are very easy to service, and complicated watches are very difficult. To an extent that's true, but not as much as most believe. To properly service, repair, adjust, and regulate a simple 3 hand watch requires most of the skills (I would say 95%) needed to service a much more complicated watch.

For example it looks like a Cal. 280 something in your avatar picture - by all accounts a simple movement, but servicing it to a professional level will require vast skills and knowledge that won't be easily obtained just by reading books or watching videos. It also will not be an inexpensive proposition to acquire all the equipment one would need to tackle the challenges a watch like this might present. Many parts are discontinued, so if you have a rough pivot on a wheel that you can't buy, are you prepared to buy a Jacot tool, and learn how to burnish pivots?

Trying to come up with some sort of comparative illustration, so how about this - I think any surgeon would agree that neurosurgery is a very difficult and complex thing, and that removing an appendix is by comparison quite simple. But would you trust a surgeon who learned to remove an appendix by reading and watching YouTube videos? Not saying that watch servicing is brain surgery or rocket science, but there is a lot more to it than people realize.

If you want to dabble in watch repair, I would recommend something like the TimeZone watch school - I've seen the first and second courses and they will give you a feel for what is involved - they won't turn you into a watchmaker by any stretch of the imagination, but they will give you a taste, and you can see if you are cut out for this kind of work - not everyone is.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
343
Likes
535
Thanks for this very detailed answer.
I meant doing the "basic" service on a movement that doesn't have any specific problem, and yes on a simpler movement if possible, such has my 280.

I wouldn't think about reaching a professional level, but be able to clean/lubricate/and regulate cheap vintage from Ebay that are not worth spending 400$ on a service would be nice. The point is it doesn't seem to be possible if I understood your post correctly, as even if the movement is simple without specific problem, it doesn't change that much compared to an automatic chronograph for exemple.

I'd love to learn more, I should try to ask a local watchmaker if I would accept to teach me some stuff or at least let me observe, but they are kind of clowns in my town...

I suppose that I'll just read your threads with great interest, and keep dreaming about it !
 
Posts
27,693
Likes
70,379
Well, the reason I'm posting these threads is to help people who want to learn. But I guess my point is, even simple watches can involve what to a beginner would be complex repairs. So for example if you have worn holes in the main plate or bridges where the barrel arbor fits (a common problem), that allow the barrel to tip, that will reduce amplitude, and you can't "clean/lubricate/and regulate" that problem away...you have to actually repair it or replace major parts of the movement.

If all you want to learn is how to disassemble, clean, reassemble, and oil a movement, then that can certainly be learned. But despite the fact that some watchmakers don't really do much more than that, doing the job properly does involve a lot more.

As I said if you want to start, the TZ school will give you an idea of what's involved.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
343
Likes
535
Thank you very much for these precisions. I would of course love to learn more, but this would be an interesting first step to save some minor watches from oblivion and have the satisfaction to get something done with my hands. Indeed it seems that some "watchmakers" don't really do more than this, which is really unfortunate.

I saved the recommendation and already looked how much this whole thing would cost, I'll definitely give it a try when I'll be settled (hard to find the place as a student).

Thanks again for these precious information.
 
Posts
75
Likes
299
Thank you very much for posting this. I don't have any aspirations of even opening a watch, but nonetheless I enjoy learning about them. The more I know, the more I appreciate the watches and your comments.
Thank you again for taking the time of illustrating us.
Claudio