I'm considering one of these new watches that has a built in cleaner, oiler, and adjuster.

 

that's just goofy

 

Well hope my juvenile humor didn't kill the thread, I'd like to learn more about the various grades of lubricants and their origin.

Not long ago I did some searching to find a additive used in Pellgun oil marketed by Crosman and found it to be a monmolecular compound (monolec) invented in the 1930's for high compression aircraft engines, and still used today in crancase oils for heavy duty marine and off road engines.

Finding the product safety sheet was crucial to tracking down the history of that oil and additive.

I haven't found a grade of that oil that I'd consider usable for watches, but you never know.

 

Watch oils have different properties to normal oils. For example with a normal oil, you want it to spread to every possible place it can go - not a good thing in watches as oils should stay in the location where they are applied, and we go to great lengths to make that happen.

There are a lot of threads on various forums with discussions on using alternative oils - motor oils, cooking oils, etc. If you are working on your own watches, then use whatever oil you feel will do the job - it's your watch after all. But professionals have a duty of care to their customers, as well as requirements from brands to maintain parts accounts, etc., so you won't find a lot of discussion about alternative oils with people who do this for a living.

I know many hobbyists find the pricing of the latest watch oils to be very expensive, but in a professional setting it's simply a cost of doing business, and in the big picture not a significant one.

Cheers, Al

 

The amount of oil used in servicing a watch is extremely tiny.
The same goes for servicing an air rifle seals and o-rings. Crosman charges outrageous prices for fractions of an ounce of pellgun oil which if bought as monolec by the quart is more expensive than common motor oils but per ounce is a small fraction of the cost of pellgun brand oil.

Thats not the point I hoped to convey.
The monolec additive fills in microscopic fissures in the metal surfaces and leaves a near friction free coating. I would think that a proper grade of a monolec oil would be perfect for watches, allowing a watch to run for decades between servicings.

"as oils should stay in the location where they are applied, and we go to great lengths to make that happen."
In reading up on the early use of whale oil it was stated that whale oil is in fact a wax rather than an oil though thin enough to look and feel like an oil. This allowed it to stay in place as you wish it to.

 

It's an interesting idea but I'll try to give a little context.

I doubt that any crankcase oil used in engines would be at all suitable for use in a watch movement. Have a look at a Stribeck diagram. I'm not a tribologist but have studied this in the past as an aircraft engineer and fairly recently as a watchmaker.

Motor oils and similar are used in the hydrodynamic range as they are usually working in plain bearings at high speed - basically, they build up a film which is thicker than any surface roughness and the rotating part is supported on the oil film.

As you start using slower parts, you move across into mixed lubrication for which you need very smooth surfaces - I'd put a needle roller or ball bearing in this category. Al might have something to say about that with his history.

Then you get down into boundary lubrication as the parts move more slowly. This is where a watch works. Surface roughness is not so critical because of the way the oil works.

You'll see all the above if you study the Stribeck diagram.

We all think about viscosity of oils but they're of far less importance for boundary layer lubrication. They're more or less, the be all and end all for hydrodynamic.

What's important for us is the ability of the oil to form a boundary layer and stay in place. Now we're reaching the limit of my knowledge but essentially, the oil forms a soap on the surface of each part in order that the parts can slide with the minimum of friction. You can do that in various ways but, I'll leave it there as I'm going on a bit.

So, what do we do? We leave it to the watch oil specialists like Moebius and pay what they want...

Cheers, Chris

 

As Chris has suggested, filling in microscopic fissures is not a big concern in watches. In terms of cost, it's a few cents per watch serviced with these expensive oils, so again not really a concern.

On the subject of whale oil, well that's before my time but you will know it if you have some in an old watch - it smells pretty terrible when you get your face in there to disassemble.

But I was referring more to surface treatments that are applied during service to keep oils from spreading inside a watch (epilame coating) in a very extensive manner at the factory when the movement was made, and done in a more limited way to specific components. Also the use of thixotropic lubrication on the escapement.

Cheers, Al

 

I suspect the waxy nature of whale oil gives it the thixotropic property you speak of. Only contact with moving parts under stress makes it act like a liquid at normal temperatures, Whatever escapes from the holes becoming semi solid so it doesn't migrate to foul the hair spring or cause other problems.

Silicone oils seem to be the modern equivalent. the only silicone oils I've used in recent years have been those recommended for my airsoft guns, but these seem far too thick for use in a watch.

I'll be ordering some specific watch oils soon. I found one lower cost brand said to be for pocket watches and of course the Moebius oil intended for wrist watches.
I found only one site with the safety sheets for Moebius oils and it requires registration and payment for downloads. If I can't find a free download site for this document, and I'm sure there's one out there, I may go ahead and join that site.

 

Well detailed post, very helpful. Thanks

 

I believe registration to download from here is free: http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils.

This one doesn't require registration: https://www.beco-technic.com/sicherheitsdatenblaetter?___store=en&___from_store=en.

 

Thanks, just what I needed.
I sent in a registration request to Moebius.

PS
No joy on the registration request. They only allow those who deal in their products to register. I'll try some other sites.

 

Intresting and informative post ! Thanks

 

Thanks for the writing up! I am new to here and am so happy to read such interesting post!

 

Really instructing topic, thanks ! It is exactly why I joined this forum. Would love to learn basic servicing skills, is it possible as an autodidact ?

 

Glad you enjoyed the post. It depends on what you mean by basic servicing skills.

There is a general misunderstanding with collectors I think, in that they believe that simple watches are very easy to service, and complicated watches are very difficult. To an extent that's true, but not as much as most believe. To properly service, repair, adjust, and regulate a simple 3 hand watch requires most of the skills (I would say 95%) needed to service a much more complicated watch.

For example it looks like a Cal. 280 something in your avatar picture - by all accounts a simple movement, but servicing it to a professional level will require vast skills and knowledge that won't be easily obtained just by reading books or watching videos. It also will not be an inexpensive proposition to acquire all the equipment one would need to tackle the challenges a watch like this might present. Many parts are discontinued, so if you have a rough pivot on a wheel that you can't buy, are you prepared to buy a Jacot tool, and learn how to burnish pivots?

Trying to come up with some sort of comparative illustration, so how about this - I think any surgeon would agree that neurosurgery is a very difficult and complex thing, and that removing an appendix is by comparison quite simple. But would you trust a surgeon who learned to remove an appendix by reading and watching YouTube videos? Not saying that watch servicing is brain surgery or rocket science, but there is a lot more to it than people realize.

If you want to dabble in watch repair, I would recommend something like the TimeZone watch school - I've seen the first and second courses and they will give you a feel for what is involved - they won't turn you into a watchmaker by any stretch of the imagination, but they will give you a taste, and you can see if you are cut out for this kind of work - not everyone is.

Cheers, Al

 

Thanks for this very detailed answer.
I meant doing the "basic" service on a movement that doesn't have any specific problem, and yes on a simpler movement if possible, such has my 280.

I wouldn't think about reaching a professional level, but be able to clean/lubricate/and regulate cheap vintage from Ebay that are not worth spending 400$ on a service would be nice. The point is it doesn't seem to be possible if I understood your post correctly, as even if the movement is simple without specific problem, it doesn't change that much compared to an automatic chronograph for exemple.

I'd love to learn more, I should try to ask a local watchmaker if I would accept to teach me some stuff or at least let me observe, but they are kind of clowns in my town...

I suppose that I'll just read your threads with great interest, and keep dreaming about it !

 

Well, the reason I'm posting these threads is to help people who want to learn. But I guess my point is, even simple watches can involve what to a beginner would be complex repairs. So for example if you have worn holes in the main plate or bridges where the barrel arbor fits (a common problem), that allow the barrel to tip, that will reduce amplitude, and you can't "clean/lubricate/and regulate" that problem away...you have to actually repair it or replace major parts of the movement.

If all you want to learn is how to disassemble, clean, reassemble, and oil a movement, then that can certainly be learned. But despite the fact that some watchmakers don't really do much more than that, doing the job properly does involve a lot more.

As I said if you want to start, the TZ school will give you an idea of what's involved.

Cheers, Al

 

Thank you very much for these precisions. I would of course love to learn more, but this would be an interesting first step to save some minor watches from oblivion and have the satisfaction to get something done with my hands. Indeed it seems that some "watchmakers" don't really do more than this, which is really unfortunate.

I saved the recommendation and already looked how much this whole thing would cost, I'll definitely give it a try when I'll be settled (hard to find the place as a student).

Thanks again for these precious information.

 

Awesome behind the scenes look

 

Thank you very much for posting this. I don't have any aspirations of even opening a watch, but nonetheless I enjoy learning about them. The more I know, the more I appreciate the watches and your comments.
Thank you again for taking the time of illustrating us.
Claudio