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Are omega (swatch group) struggling?

Peemacgee
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I think it very unfortunate that the OP took his post down - and his bat and ball home.

Come back @Hicksmat we're not really an unfriendly bunch!

(at least I clipped the relevant bit of his post which makes the whole thread make some kind of sense.... 馃榿)

However, I certainly didn't intend to make the OP feel uncomfortable - if only he had said "....Omega want the brand recognition that Rolex have" he might have had a point. (the tier thing is just plain nonsense)
Security issues aside I don't think any company would realistically eschew the kind of marketing success that Rolex have achieved - which is truly phenomenal.

Working in the Middle East I've had good friends thrust (often very expensive) Rolexes under my nose with the comment "I think that is much better quality than Omega".
What can you say? "actually it's not and you have been hoodwinked by a clever marketing strategy"
It's not something you can really do in polite society.

There is simply a perception amongst some luxury watch owners (who often know little about the watches they wear except the cost and the brand name) that Rolexes are a 'cut above'.

My Rolex-owning buddies can be safe in the knowledge that they own the pinnacle of luxury watches - who are we to disavow them of that notion?
Me - I'm happy to just sit there wearing my 60+ year old vintage Constellations with an inner satisfaction of knowing just how good they really are.
 
texasmade
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IMO 2 things that Rolex is better than Omega
1. Marketing. This is obvious with resale value and the way general public views Rolex.
2. Fit. A lot of Omega's are just too big in terms of case size or thickness for most people compared to most Rolex which fill fit almost any size wrist.

Peemacgee Peemacgee
Working in the Middle East I've had good friends thrust (often very expensive) Rolexes under my nose with the comment "I think that is much better quality than Omega".
What can you say? "actually it's not and you have been hoodwinked by a clever marketing strategy"
It's not something you can really do in polite society.
.
 
ErichPryde
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Ahhh, the famed Annapolis Valuation Equation.


Annapolis Annapolis
For the OP: I think the relative merits of a Rolex vs. an Omega (or any other struggling mid-tier brand) can be calculated using a rudimentary equation.

(P - G) (J/M) + W
/ f(x0 + 螖x)

Where:
P is the retail price
G is the gray market (or "street") price
J is the number of times John Mayer has been spotted wearing the watch
M is 5x the avg number of times Tim Mosso has used the word "knurling" in video reviews of the reference
W is the waitlist (expressed in rounded whole number of weeks)
x is the number of douchebags who post Instagram wristshots of the watch each day referring to it by a corny nickname

The lower the number, the better the watch.
 
Annapolis
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Yes, I've shared my contact information with the Nobel Committee and am keeping my phone on.

I think the OP was a little tone-deaf in his post, and also didn't take the replies in the right spirit---I didn't see any of the responses as being clique-ish or unwelcoming at all.

The truth is, there are many folks on this forum who appreciate Rolex---I'm one of them, having owned several over the years. I'm sure there are Rolex-hating Omega fanboys here, but I'd hazard they're in the minority. We're watch enthusiasts. Omega might be the brand I enjoy most, but that doesn't mean I can't respect the Sub or the Day-Date too. I think what folks here sometime bristle at (with good humor, most of the time) is all the hype and star-fu@king that Rolex and its devotees engage in and promote. Not that Omega doesn't do some of the same, but with Rolex it's gotten right out of control. And as a result, I no longer feel comfortable wearing Rolex watches--no matter how undeniably great they are--because I don't want to be associated with that, and I don't like it when other people notice the watch I'm wearing and voice under-informed questions about it. ("Is that real?" "What did that cost?") Never happened with an Omega. I suppose some people crave that kind of attention. I got enough hugs when I was a kid.
 
ErichPryde
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While I was trading for my Speedmaster yesterday at a local watch shop, somebody walked in with a vintage 5512 that I was able to look at. I don't think I've ever seen that reference in person and it was absolutely fantastic. Some rolexes, especially vintage ones, are really attractive watches.

In some ways the same Cult of mysticism that has grown up around Rolex maybe starting around Omega.

Annapolis Annapolis
Yes, I've shared my contact information with the Nobel Committee and am keeping my phone on.

I think the OP was a little tone-deaf in his post, and also didn't take the replies in the right spirit---I didn't see any of the responses as being clique-ish or unwelcoming at all.

The truth is, there are many folks on this forum who appreciate Rolex---I'm one of them, having owned several over the years. I'm sure there are Rolex-hating Omega fanboys here, but I'd hazard they're in the minority. We're watch enthusiasts. Omega might be the brand I enjoy most, but that doesn't mean I can't respect the Sub or the Day-Date too. I think what folks here sometime bristle at (with good humor, most of the time) is all the hype and star-fu@king that Rolex and its devotees engage in and promote. Not that Omega doesn't do some of the same, but with Rolex it's gotten right out of control. And as a result, I no longer feel comfortable wearing Rolex watches--no matter how undeniably great they are--because I don't want to be associated with that, and I don't like it when other people notice the watch I'm wearing and voice under-informed questions about it. ("Is that real?" "What did that cost?") Never happened with an Omega. I suppose some people crave that kind of attention. I got enough hugs when I was a kid.
 
pdxleaf
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Peemacgee Peemacgee
Working in the Middle East I've had good friends thrust (often very expensive) Rolexes under my nose with the comment "I think that is much better quality than Omega".

What can you say?

Suggested response: :"Interesting. Why do you think so?"

Fair game after that.
 
gatorcpa
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Peemacgee Peemacgee
Working in the Middle East I've had good friends thrust (often very expensive) Rolexes under my nose with the comment "I think that is much better quality than Omega".
What can you say? "actually it's not and you have been hoodwinked by a clever marketing strategy"
It's not something you can really do in polite society.
In their society, probably not.

However, I would hope that "good friends" would not be offended by a discussion of the various criteria of quality.

Resale value is certainly one element and on that, Rolex has Omega beat. Most of that advantage is from many years of superior marketing. Market manipulation helps that supply vs. demand curve also.

IMO, Rolex also leads Omega in the quality of the watch case. The standard Oyster case design is better at keeping water out than the standard Omega case when properly maintained. There are specialty Omega cases (ProPlof comes to mind) that are specifically designed to be superior, but these are not standard.

However, Rolex has not really upgraded their movements in 50+ years. Why mess with a winner? Omega has introduced many innovations to their standard movements over the years that make them generally more accurate than Rolex. Now both will qualify for the COSC chronometer designations ("Superior" according to Rolex). Omega also uses a Co-Axial escapement which has its own advantages and disadvantages, but is generally slightly more accurate than a normal lever escapement in everyday use. If the criteria of quality here is accuracy of timekeeping, a $10 quartz watch is probably more accurate than either a Rolex or an Omega.

There are good things and better things about both brands and personally, for new watches, I like Jaeger-LeCoultre products better than either. But I realize that JLC is a niche brand and is not necessarily widely available in some parts of the world.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa
 
ErichPryde
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pdxleaf pdxleaf
Suggested response: :"Interesting. Why do you think so?"

Fair game after that.
Here's the thing though, this goes back to logical fallacies. Anyone who chooses to believe something despite direct evidence to the contrary, you are not going to win an argument with that person.

Edit: I'm not saying the debate isn't worth it and I'm not saying that you can't convince some people.. this post probably needs a little bit more clarification
 
H
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I wish I had never mentioned Rolex. That was a mistake on my part. I鈥檒l instead say, why have omega prices doubled on some models over the last 5 years or thereabouts when very little has changed with the watches themselves. How did a 拢2800 SMP become 拢8k? I tried to imply this was omega taking a shortcut (price rises, way way above where they should be for omega) to be perceived differently with a view to be at the same level as some other brands I won鈥檛 mention the name of. You can google swatch group financial struggles for yourselves.
 
H
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Ps I don鈥檛 own Rolex and have no aspirations to do so. It was just a name that comes easily to mind.
 
gbesq
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Glad you came back, Hicksmat. We really didn't mean to scare you off and you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
 
ErichPryde
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Honestly, why can Rolex fix qty and play games at the ADs for purchases? Because people perceive the quality is there. This is really the same thing that Omega is able to do- people PERCEIVE the quality is there, because it is.

As far as "little to no change" that's not really correct. Whether or not the price hikes are justified, the case can certainly be made that the co-axial movements are better and more expensive and more reliable, and worth the cost. And again, it doesn't matter what reality is- the perception is that this is so, much like people do perceive that "Oystersteel" is better (I've literally had this conversation). The current reddit crowd really does perceive Co-axial movements to be wildly reliable; this has been my experience as well. In fact, there is a strongly growing population of new Omega owners that perceive the co-axial movement is better by far, than anything offered by the competition. MAYBE that's Omega's marketing department kicking in? If so, not much different than Rolex.

The RETAIL price of a Rolex Sub date has increased 21% since 2016 (or so)
The RETAIL price of a Speedy 1861 to 3861 (hesalite) has increased 30%

Is it more? YES. A statistically significant amount? yes. A huge dollar amount? not really. One could easily argue that this is "efficient market hypothesis" at work in the watch world- allowing brands that are underpriced to catch up to brands that are fairly-to-slightly-overpriced.

That's supply and demand. and it's a fair arbiter of value. What you label shortcut- is more accurately described as market correction and re-pricing.

As an added edit: that's MSRP to MSRP and the reality is there is no need to pay true MSRP for an Omega speedmaster, and you are not likely to get MSRP for a Rolex. If we were to look at true gray dealer prices you probably pay 15% less than the MSRP increase for an Omega, and the true increase of price of a Rolex would still be 20 to 30%.

H Hicksmat
I wish I had never mentioned Rolex. That was a mistake on my part. I鈥檒l instead say, why have omega prices doubled on some models over the last 5 years or thereabouts when very little has changed with the watches themselves. How did a 拢2800 SMP become 拢8k? I tried to imply this was omega taking a shortcut (price rises, way way above where they should be for omega) to be perceived differently with a view to be at the same level as some other brands I won鈥檛 mention the name of. You can google swatch group financial struggles for yourselves.
Edited:
 
ErichPryde
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texasmade texasmade
IMO 2 things that Rolex is better than Omega
1. Marketing. This is obvious with resale value and the way general public views Rolex.
2. Fit. A lot of Omega's are just too big in terms of case size or thickness for most people compared to most Rolex which fill fit almost any size wrist.


This was true as of the last generation of omega watches and is probably true of the current SMP, but the second generation Seamaster Heritage and the current generation moonwatch are a spectacular step in the right direction in terms of case size. The 2nd gen heritage, especially, could not get a whole lot better. The height is in the domed crystal.
 
gbesq
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To answer your question, Hicksmat, I think that there are a number of factors at work. First, we are in an inflationary environment generally. Nearly everything has become more expensive, not the least of which are raw materials and labor. Second, you have to realize that Omega certainly isn't the only Swiss watch brand that has been raising prices. JLC, for example, has raised prices dramatically over the past few years and they were expensive to begin with. Last, and most relevant to your point, is that Omega IS trying to move its reputation to a more upmarket position and the price increases I think are part of that strategy. Where we may disagree is that I think that Omega is generally on par with Rolex in terms of the quality of its offerings. So while I don't like paying more for anything, watches included, I don't agree that Omega is any less justified than Rolex, or any other Swiss watch brand for that matter, in raising its prices.
 
Archer
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RevZMan123 RevZMan123
Yeah, I'm sure their marketing department would disagree with you a little

I'm sure they would. Still doesn't mean it's mystical/mythical...
 
pdxleaf
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H Hicksmat
...I鈥檒l instead say, why have omega prices doubled on some models over the last 5 years or thereabouts when very little has changed with the watches themselves. How did a 拢2800 SMP become 拢8k?
....

I think many people bemoan the price increases, myself included. My perspective is somewhat the reverse of yours.

My perception was that Omega was the best cost value in their tier (mid-level luxury, whatever anyone wants to call it.) In 2019, a Hesalite Speedmaster on bracelet could be purchased for 10 to 20% off the 5300 USD retail. That was cheap.

By raising prices, Omega recognized they were under their market. I miss the days of saying Omega is the inexpensive luxury watch brand. But I believe the higher prices were justified based on their quality and branding.

We simply got used to being able to get good watches cheap.

(Glad you came back 馃榾)
 
Fish70
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Donn Chambers Donn Chambers
Ironic that the original poster deleted his original message and left, yet this is still generating comments and likely will for days to come.

Omegafourms in a nutshell.

Yeah, it was pretty peak trolling.
 
duc
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Annapolis Annapolis
For the OP: I think the relative merits of a Rolex vs. an Omega (or any other struggling mid-tier brand) can be calculated using a rudimentary equation.

(P - G) (J/M) + W
/ f(x0 + 螖x)

Where:
P is the retail price
G is the gray market (or "street") price
J is the number of times John Mayer has been spotted wearing the watch
M is 5x the avg number of times Tim Mosso has used the word "knurling" in video reviews of the reference
W is the waitlist (expressed in rounded whole number of weeks)
x is the number of douchebags who post Instagram wristshots of the watch each day referring to it by a corny nickname

The lower the number, the better the watch.
-5 points. Forgot to define "f" 馃槈
 
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