I don't know if I would call myself a dealer, although the Moderators of this forum do..
If you look at my sales on this forum, I think I have sold 4 watches in 4 years, so I am a pretty poor Dealer with that amount of sales
I am a collector first and foremost and my motivation for not disclosing details has nothing to do with me or "my mates" making money. And I do take offense that you feel I am asking for anyone to contact me for an Authentic Speedy. Where did I ever offer up a watch or DON for sale? You try to help and get accused of trying to drum up business. Thats BS man..

I didn't ask to be the gatekeeper or even a part of any group formed to combat the counterfeiters. All I am trying to do is to talk some sense into the forum members in not divulging publicly what the problems are to help combat this never ending cycle of cat and mouse with the fakers.

Every time I get into this topic I end up looking like the bad guy. I think its time I take a step back. My position has been well documented.

 

I am in favor of openness, even as prices escalate. Part of what separates the vintage Omega collecting (and this forum in particular) from certain areas of vintage Rolex collecting is the spirit of community and willingness to share information freely in an almost academic-like atmosphere. The cloak and dagger stuff tends to make the hobby less fun and more paranoid.

I will say that in the past year or two there has been more of an effort to share openly in the vintage Rolex world (thinking specifically of the sites from @t_swiss_t) and that is much appreciated.

 

You don't look like the bad guy, not to me. I believe the idea here is to discuss viewpoints, sometimes opposing, in a gentlemanly way. I think there have been some really interesting perspectives on both sides. One thing we can all agree on: these guys are assholes.

 

Wonder if all these fakers could be stopped on their tracks if Omega started making DONs again as replacement parts.

 

These fakers are already producing full watches that are close to indiscernible from genuine. Thus reproducing a bezel is child’s play. As some have already mentioned the genuine templates and the technology to reproduce them are usually easily available. Although keeping information open and readily available on the forum educates both fakers and genuine collectors, it also fosters trust among community members which in turn helps expose potentially nefarious individuals within and outside the community.

 

Agree 100%. This Seller may advertise they are new, but a future seller of a watch that has such a bezel possibly will not. If this maker is at least semi-honest, he would put a visible 'tell' somewhere on the front or back.

 

I think it is understandable that members here try to cling to the illusion that by being secretive they will succeed in preventing fakers from creating exact copies of DON bezels. But it is not rocket science. You only need an original bezel and a certain degree of diligence (and the right means) to copy it. No input from third parties is necessary.
So, at some point, if those fakers succeed, we'll simply demand proof that the bezel in question existed before date X (mid 2018?) and prices will reflect that criterion.

 

Wow---a secret Expert Collectors Club! It should include an OF moderator, so that when a newbie puts up a post asking about authenticity, the mod can delete it immediately. The moderator would then put out the bat-signal and convene a meeting of the ECC at a NYC coffee house, location not disclosed. The members would meet and apply their expertise and the mod would send a PM to the original poster regarding ECC findings.

If the bezel was fake, the evil scumbag faker would have one less person viewing it on eBay. That is, there would only be 3,999 people viewing the listing, not 4,000. Mission accomplished!

Meanwhile, the 500 OF members who might actually want to learn something about fakes won't have a clue. This is good, as knowledge is a dangerous thing in the hands of amateurs.

 

I think the whole premise of this thread goes against the purpose of a collector forum. Perhaps dealers and closet dealers come at it from a different angle. As noted wittily above, to try to put the genie back in the box is futile and just leads to petty 'I'm alright Jack' behaviour. Where something with little intrinsic value becomes valuable, fakers are going to fake it since it costs them little but time. To follow this to its logical conclusion, we would pull all pictures of DON bezels and advertise our Pre-Moons by text only.

 

Oh man you just brought back some memories of early eBay when as many listings were text only as had photos, watches included. I never bought any from text only listings, but the first few watches I sold on eBay were text only because I didn't have a digital camera or a scanner.

 

FIFY Bri’ish style

 

"The moderator would then put out the bat-signal and convene a meeting of the ECC at a NYC coffee house, location not disclosed. The members would meet and apply their expertise and the mod would send a PM to the original poster regarding ECC findings."

OR simply just email the photos to the members of the group for a consensus.

But, your way works just as well..

 

Hiding information is trying to achieve security through obscurity.

It has been proven that this approach won't work for long.

Free exchange of ideas and information with due attribution is how science progress.

I feel that the same approach makes sense in horology and watch collecting.

 

I think a forum like this can have many premises, one of which is the intent to protect other collectors from losing a shit-ton of money, and increasing their grief. Just because an adequate solution hasn't been reached by an admittedly superficially-conceived concept, doesn't mean the intent wasn't honorable.

 

Yet again this is all crazy talk.

The fakers can see real bezels with the click of a button.

We are not giving them the way to make better DONs the collective hive that is here educates people so they stop buying them.

Just remember HOW the members of the group got there knowledge. Yes people that shared knowledge like here.

And it upsets me that you have this attitude

As you learnt most on public forums. To me it’s a knowledge thief,s attitude as your happy to read information but not give back.

It’s times and threads like this I’m glad I bought a modern speedmaster and didn’t enter the vintage speedmaster market of murkiness that is growing

I still respect all the sharers of information like William who no doubt you learnt a thing or two from

 

I don't think sharing different ideas and perspectives is crazy. I think a subtle demeaning of viewpoints that one doesn't agree with, which then stifles content that doesn't immediately invoke group consensus is much closer to a fractured way of thinking.

 

Standy: My Dad always told me: A wise man can learn something from a fool, but a fool can learn nothing from a wise man.

I learn something new about Omega, Rolex, Patek..everyday. To suggest I got my education from William is absurd and I can tell you I disagree with some of the things he says, but I respect his knowledge and passion. You also assume I got my education from public forums and I can tell you that very little of what I have learned is from public forums. In fact, some of the biggest Vintage dealers on the planet neither read nor post on the forums. I don't need to name names, just look at the top 10 Vintage Rolex dealers in the world, not a single one posts on forums except a single one who owns a forum and feels compelled to say something once in a while to keep his forum relevant. I read volumes of books, handled thousands of watches and learned through trial and error. I even taught myself how to work on movements and pushers and hand stacks. No Youtube videos or web forums..

I was warned long ago to never post on forums. I didnt listen and the Dealer who told me this was 100% correct. I still post because I am intrigued by the comments. I enjoy the passion of the collectors and I occasionally learn a thing or two about nuances I have overlooked. But, to post to show how smart I am, or to try and drum up business is not my intention.. ever. And the heat you get is never worth the occasional PM thanking you for being genuine.

"The fakers can see real bezels with the click of a button. We are not giving them the way to make better DONs ..."

I will say this again, perhaps for the 8th time... if the fakers had the ability to make a perfect DON from the jump then they would have. If they knew what was wrong with the first gen or even the 4th gen of DON bezels, they would have corrected them. Simply having a DON to copy or using an internet photo to recreate the artwork is not enough. You guys continue to macro photograph the finest details and then they correct them in subsequent revisions. Cant any of you PM or use email? Why the F do you need to put it out there for everyone to see? To show how smart you are? To help the community at large learn how to spot a fake? Once you do that they just correct the flaw until it is flawless.

Its like banging my head against a stone wall here man.. The forgers are not collectors. They arent dealers and they arent particularly concerned with minutia and details like we are. This is why fake dials are never right or fake bezels or fake anything. I can tell you I have seen super fakes sold by Italian Dealers primarily that are so good that Rolex needed to check their records to verify the serials arent correct for the model. They are PERFECT.

When the dealers who know the fine details start getting into the action, then you have serious problems.

I will again plug the IG poster named Orchi Palar who outs these guys and their flaws about 20 times a day. At least he is outing actual people doing the forgery and supporting it with photos. You guys just out the flaws, allowing the forgers to keep on forging..