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An alternative perspective on how to deal with bezel fakers..

  1. M'Bob

    M'Bob Feb 25, 2019

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    I certainly can appreciate William's opinion that information gained about the fake bezel issue should be freely shared so that everyone can benefit.

    But let's call it like it is, without the euphemism: they're not fakers, but deceiving criminals, who have no compunction about taking your hard-earned money without a second thought.

    On top of that, what are we doing here? People that have a dedicated interest in helping others, and who take many hours slaving over the tiniest details on these bezels, then present, on a silver-platter, without any effort whatsoever from these low-life scoundrels, the exact new detail that they should correct. And then the cycle continues...

    What to do? Form a group of ethical, dedicated collectors, that have an interest in this issue, and have them share and disseminate these details amongst themselves. Then, when a collector of note has a query about the authenticity of a piece, they can submit it to the group, either for free or a small fee (heck, I would pay for that), and then they would get an answer, fake, or real, without any details.

    I'm going to stop you right there...I know it's not a perfect system. I haven't thought of all the details, hence the post. But we, as a community, who have a real interest in this issue from a variety of motivations, have to push back against this behavior in some way. Otherwise, just turn your pockets inside out, and smile...
     
    sdre, blufinz52, mr_yossarian and 2 others like this.
  2. Varnado

    Varnado Feb 25, 2019

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    I have been saying the same thing for a long time. Good Luck with your plan and get ready for the flames.
     
    kov likes this.
  3. dsio

    dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Feb 25, 2019

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    If you could also prevent them from ever accessing a genuine bezel to copy from, and from accessing said group of collectors, and from ever seeing high resolution DSLR shots of the bezels it would almost make sense but what you're describing is what's known in the Infosec world as security by obscurity and is worthless.

    The skillset necessary to play the game "spot the difference" is something children learn from childhood books, it's not hard and certainly doesn't require any knowledge or expertise as a watch collector.
     
  4. M'Bob

    M'Bob Feb 25, 2019

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    I figured as much, but if you don't try to fix something that's clearly broken, then that's worse then disagreement.
     
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  5. kov

    kov Feb 25, 2019

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    Will be following this thread with great interest. :)

    My feeling is, there is already a lot of knowledge that is not being shared for above reasons, or only partially, to keep control of the situation. DON bezels are only the tip of the Speedmaster iceberg so far.

    *sarcastic mode on*

    Those guys are stupid anyway - a vintage Pulsometer bezel is much easier to reproduce and pulls a better value than a DON. ::popcorn::

    *sarcastic mode off*
     
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  6. M'Bob

    M'Bob Feb 25, 2019

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    Except they have a plethora of genuine bezels to copy from, yet continue to make mistakes...
     
  7. dsio

    dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Feb 25, 2019

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    Correct. Yet they managed to get as close as they are on their own and will continue improving regardless as they don't need William, you or me to take two high resolution photographs, lay them over the top of each-other and look for differences. This isn't rocket surgery mate, there aren't ultra secret techniques here, its literally looking at two images and going hmm are these the same or different.
     
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  8. M'Bob

    M'Bob Feb 25, 2019

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    But why assist, make it easier? If one legitimate transaction gets thru because their efforts are delayed, wouldn't that be a positive thing?
     
  9. Larry S

    Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Feb 25, 2019

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    Sun light is the best disinfectant.
     
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  10. dsio

    dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Feb 25, 2019

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    It isn't assisting or making it easier for them, its drawing attention and suspicion to the manufacture of these parts and outing those in circulation making the market more skeptical and cautious rather than creating a handful of people that do know the difference and feeding the rest of the collectors to the wolves.
     
    queriver, Syzygy, wsfarrell and 7 others like this.
  11. M'Bob

    M'Bob Feb 25, 2019

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    Except for killing hepatitis B on a surface... :)
     
  12. M'Bob

    M'Bob Feb 25, 2019

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    All good points, thanks.
     
  13. dsio

    dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Feb 25, 2019

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    I do understand and appreciate your points too and your passion, but I'm certain every time this or any other shitbag making these bezels has put all of this effort into tooling for a production run, then finds out some minor detail exposed publicly has ruined that line of bezels leading to angry customers of his coming back to him, that dude isn't going to be thinking "Damn William is a bro for helping me out like this" but rather will be furious.

    Then when the same happens to his next production run because as you say, it really is never perfect and there are always flaws, and he gets sent back to the drawing board again, that cycle repeats itself whereas if its never exposed that guy gets to keep printing off his known fake bezels and taking marks for their cash without a care in the world.
     
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  14. STANDY

    STANDY schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collector Feb 25, 2019

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    So basically you want no one to post photos of speedmasters with bezels or cover them like serial numbers.

    I don’t get what your trying to achieve because there is a million pictures of legitimate bezels for them to look at to try and copy
     
  15. Varnado

    Varnado Feb 25, 2019

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    What no one seems to understand is that the fakers really do not know the nuances and minutia of the details. They take a high res image of a bezel and copy it. When DSIO says "they don't need William, you or me to take two high resolution photographs, lay them over the top of each-other and look for differences" he is DEAD WRONG.

    They DO need us to do exactly that, because they do not see the small detail errors. If they did, why would they push them out with knowing flaws? You guys dont get it. We spoon feed the flaws to them and they correct them. It is very close to the time right now that the fakes are indiscernible and we have no-one else to blame but ourselves for showing them the exact flaws we use to detect them.

    They aren't that smart or that good. WE ARE. But, when we hand them the details on a platter they are skilled enough to make revisions and for the amount of profit they make on each bezel, its a great living..
     
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  16. dsio

    dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Feb 25, 2019

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    Its a matter of ROI, they do the minimum required to make money off a "good enough" replica, as the amount of additional time and money required to make it more and more perfect increases eating into the bottom line. Once again, they don't need to be smart or good, as it simply isn't hard at all. I totally appreciate that you'd be happy letting anyone that wasn't you or one of your mates continue to get burned as you're in the business of making money, not friends but what you're saying is simply false.
     
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  17. Varnado

    Varnado Feb 25, 2019

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    DSIO: If you knew how simple it was to make revisions, your comment about eating into the bottom line would never be mentioned. Its artwork and to move a dot .003mm in photoshop takes about 15 seconds. In addition, all of the revisions you hand these guys in totality would take them about 5 minutes or less to do. Then off to the print area to make a new "sticker" to lay down. Costs pennies. Doesn't eat into the bottom line one bit. RETURNS and EXPOSURE eat into their bottom line, making revisions to get them perfect is an INVESTMENT to push them out at higher prices and in greater numbers. These guys have now started buying up crappy Speedmasters, putting on mint DON's (with minimal aging done) and selling them for equal or higher profits. How many of us have or would buy a junk Speedy just to get the minty DON?

    The days of selling loose perfect DONS on ebay are coming to a close, they are much better at hiding the fake parts now.

    "I totally appreciate that you'd be happy letting anyone that wasn't you or one of your mates continue to get burned as you're in the business of making money, not friends but what you're saying is simply false."

    This is just 180 degrees incorrect. My position is to HELP everyone by not divulging the tells on a public forum. I have said many times I would sit and meet with anyone over a cup of coffee and show them what the tells are on recut cases, relumed dials, fake DON's or anything else I have knowledge about. But, I won't type one line of advise on any forum where the people I am trying to bury can learn how to do it better.

    If Y'all can't understand me or agree with me then I'm OK with that.
     
  18. dsio

    dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Feb 25, 2019

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    Finally something we can agree on, exposing and outing them rather than letting sales continue uninhibited does in fact make a difference and its something I hope to see more of.

    Forgive me for not endorsing you as gatekeeper, but given you're a dealer we have also fielded complaints about watches from I'm still in favour of keeping information free rather than sending people to you for a cup of coffee when they're after an authentic Speedmaster.
     
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  19. kov

    kov Feb 25, 2019

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    Capture d’écran 2019-02-25 à 15.33.53.png Capture d’écran 2019-02-25 à 15.34.09.png

    At least, here the seller is mentioning his bezel insert to be a custom made replacement part.

    Even if the guy who makes those inserts is not proceeding as described himself, there will always be people smart enough to mention a minty DON instead of a Quality replacement Custom made insert in their own watch sales listing. Or when they hand a watch to an auction house like we've just seen in another thread.
     
  20. eugeneandresson

    eugeneandresson Feb 25, 2019

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    I can't help to wonder if this is not because its been outed here...