again: Ranking Swiss Watch Brands

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This topic seems to surface inside some other threads.
So let me as well try a ranking of Swiss watch brands from my point of view:
I am in the watch collection scene about 40 years and have visited the workshops and archives of many Swiss watch manufacturers. I saw brands disapearing and rebirthing like Blancpain, were I was in the original factory in Villeret, same with Minerva, Cortebert, Ulysse Nardin, Guinand aso.
So my view on brand ranking is based on a very historic way, not at all interested in todays numbers, revenues and second hand values.
And here I do not count the jewelry labels like Chanel, Cartier... nor the new brands like Panerai, Montblanc, Hublot, Chopard...
(And sorry, I surely miss some remarcable brands.)

Let me try:
- upper upper class:
Patek Philippe, Lange & Söhne, Breguet, F.P. Journe
- middle upper class:
Jaeger-LeCoultre, Vacheron & Constantin, Audemar-Piguet
...
upper middle class:
Rolex, Omega, IWC...
middle middle class:
Breitling, Heuer, Longines, Zenith, Movado, Ebel, Blancpain, Beaume & Mercier. Girard-Perregaux, Eberhard, Beaume & Mercier, Universal Geneve...
- lower middle class:
Doxa, Certina, Tissot, Rado, Mido, Tudor, Eterna, Zodiac, Angelus, Helvetia...

- lower class:
Oris, Nivada, Fortis...

Its my very individual view, not knowing most of the actual models, wether they obey todays high grade watch making standards or craftmansship.

Most of these brands today are not individual manufacturers as they are part of a luxury goods corporation like Swatch, Richemont, LVMH a.s.o. were they share techniques and service infrastructure.
To name two antipodes: Rolex is on its own and they are optimizing industrial mass production, while e.g. Lange & Söhne watches are to a great part handmade with individual high grade movement functions in small batches.

⁣Gruß Konrad
(I do not agree with the att. pyramid, it seems only to count second hand values.)

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For what it’s worth, not a bad general classification of the most familiar Swiss brands in my view although others will disagree.
 
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A few related thoughts.

I think that in order to "fine tune" any such list, it is necessary to specify roughly what period of time is being used for context. For example, I would say that from 1900–1970 would be a good "vintage" period. In that context, most would argue that as in the pyramid graphic, Patek Philippe, Vacheron & Constantin and Audemar-Piguet would occupy the top tier. That is based primarily on the quality and finishing of movements, as, for example, early Audemars Piguet dials were often not of exceptional quality.

An intrinsic problem with these type of lists is that all good class manufacturer produced some very high-class, or even top-class models. Longines is a good example, as their 13ZN chronographs are among the most highly regarded and sought after by collectors of any brand. But it would be very difficult to take the best models and rank them, so it does make more sense to rank based more on the broad variety of models produced.

I am not a Breguet expert, but I know some very sophisticated collectors and watchmakers who believe that their reputation is inflated. Lange was much more of a pocket watch maker during those earlier times, so while definitely high-quality, I would probably not include them on such a list.

Jaeger LeCoutre was undoubtedly very good, and produced private ebauches for Vacheron and Audemars, but I would place them in the "mid-high" category.

Longines, Omega and Zenith all made excellent ranges, with some outstanding models. The OP has Zenith below the other two, but given that the cal. 135 is one of the great chronometers of the Golden Age of Swiss watchmaking, and that the 133 is one of the best, and possibly best finished high-production bumper movement ever made, I would be inclined to place the company on roughly equal terms.

I believe Mido and Movado to be widely underrated, and would likely rank them higher than most.
 
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Thanks @Tony C.
Thats what I wanted to trigger, a more indepth look at the merits of those classical Swiss brands and their historic master pieces.
Konrad
 
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I’m not disagreeing with your pyramid @kfranzk but just pondering whether or not a ‘value for money’ criterion would have an effect on ranking?
 
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@Spruce: Thats what I want to avoid.
For me e.g. a Zenith Espada with El Primero was a milestone in watchmaking and has a much higher value than a Rolex Daytona with cal Vx 72 or the El Primero derivate. But the market rates the Daytona 4 times higher or even more.
Or take the 3 big original Gerald Genta tool watch designs Nautilus, Royal Oak and Ingenieur SL. The same level of watchmaking, but how different is the actual market value. But I rank the brand Patek Philippe much higher than IWC, because they made many many more outstanding masterpieces.
And I am a lover and not a dealer.
Konrad
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I am all about the historical aspects of a brand of watch when I form a watch ranking in my mind. I admire the brands that went places and did things.

Did it govern the railroad timetables, make it to the top of Mount Everest, go to the moon? Was it nicknamed the "Turnip?" Did Albert Einstein wear it? Did it cross the Atlantic on Charles Lindburg's wrist? Was it a member of "The Dirty Dozen?" Was it the first brand to feature a Mickey Mouse motif on its dial?

The fine design and finish, or status of the brand, or how the watch will be perceived in the aisle of an airliner while boarding matters less than the brand's historical heritage to me.
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I am all about the historical aspects of a brand of watch when I form a watch ranking in my mind. I admire the brands that went places and did things.

Did it govern the railroad timetables, make it to the top of Mount Everest, go to the moon? Was it nicknamed the "Turnip?" Did Albert Einstein wear it? Did it cross the Atlantic on Charles Lindburg's wrist? Was it a member of "The Dirty Dozen?" Was it the first brand to feature a Mickey Mouse motif on its dial?

The fine design and finish, or status of the brand, or how the watch will be perceived in the aisle of an airliner while boarding matters less than the brand's historical heritage to me.
Do all the historical claims for a given manufacturer have to actually be true or do relentless and dubious marketing claims count? Yes, Rolex, I'm talking about you. 😁
 
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Do all the historical claims for a given manufacturer have to actually be true or do relentless and dubious marketing claims count? Yes, Rolex, I'm talking about you. 😁

Well ... there is that.

Or, which brand watch made it to the top of Everest first?

At least we know which brand made the first appearance on the surface of the moon!
 
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I know you didn't make that pyramid chart image but I'm gonna pick a specific aspect of it that immediately stood out to rant about to nobody in particular, though I have other issues with it like completely missing Tudor.

When exactly was this pyramid chart made that Panerai is considered a tier above Omega? Was it when they were falsely advertising the 318 with an upgraded OP II movement but shipping it with a completely untouched base spec Unitas 6497, which they retroactively declared the "OP XXIX" when caught and never used again? And which, by the way, they never really admitted fault for - though they did offer aggrieved customers the option of having the advertised movement installed at the customer's own shipping expense.

Or perhaps it was when they intentionally and repeatedly mislead customers into thinking the P.9200 was a fully in house caliber, even though it turns out it had 2892A2 still stamped on the mainplate.

Or maybe it was when they released the Luminor Due with only 30 metres of water resistance, largely due to a fake screw down caseback, which was actually snap on. Kind of an insult to the brand's original heritage, no?

Or perhaps when they started reducing the quality of their recent watches, removing features like hacking seconds from multiple movements and no longer decorating them either, leaving basic bead blasted finishes and punched and pressed bridges.

Panerai make some cool looking watches, but a tier above Omega? Please.
 
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Some semantics, but I think it's a substantive question: are you ranking watches, or are you ranking brands per se?

If one is ranking brands per se--meaning which brand is the best/ most successful/ most valuable, etc--then it makes good sense to elevate Patek and Rolex and the like: those companies have put much thought into branding, and their success can be measured in their brands' wide recognition and value-retention on the secondary market. I've never lost money on a Rolex. I've lost very significant money reselling Omegas and a Vacheron, even though those latter watches were all, to my mind, superior to any Rolex I've owned. (The VC was especially sad: leagues better than anything Rolex has ever produced if one is considering pure horology, but couldn't find a buyer at 60% retail. Meanwhile my workaday Sub that I bought new, wore for several months and scratched up considerably: I made 2k when I sold it.)

OP, you say you base your ranking on a historic view, but, as has been pointed out, that too can be a matter of branding. What kind of underwear was Aldrin wearing when he set foot on the Moon? If it doesn't matter or influence your own underwear-buying choices, then why does it matter what watch brand he wore? I'm susceptible to it too, but it's quite silly.

As I've matured into this hobby, I've pretty much stopped worrying about brand "ranking," accepted that watches aren't smart investments (at least not for small fish like me), and tried to focus solely on the watches. For that reason, I'd say it's far more useful to rank watches (from various brands) categorically, rather than rank brands among themselves.

In the luxury dive watch category, I might rank Blancpain at the top, followed by Rolex, then Omega...

For dress watches, it's pretty neck-and-neck for Patek and Lange---the latter probably dominates if one focuses on fine movement finishing, the former when it comes to other aspects, such as innovations in complications, etc.

Could go on, of course. But my point is, I think brand-ranking is using too broad a brush, and it's not always clear what it is that people are even ranking.

I will say this, as one example of where I do feel comfortable commenting on a brand as a whole: I just don't get AP--in the modern era. Their entire identity seems to be staked on a single basic design, and it's not even a particularly attractive one to my eyes.
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Dear Mr K,
Cartier and other top jewelers like Boucheron and Piaget are primarily known as makers of jewelery, their fame does not come from the making of the movements themselves, but I think it is a misconception to dismiss them as «fashion ».

They are upper upper upper class, clearly up there with Patek Philippe and way above Rolex in terms of luxury IMHO.
I guarantee you I hold no stock in Richemont which now owns Cartier, but it has had several exhibitions in major French public museums as jewelers to the kings (See below), and it is no wonder many of those treasures are now held by Qatari royals.
Cartier invented timeless designs like the «tank » watch and the Santos which still endure after 100 years.

Anyhow, I’m happy to grant you that they’re in a class of their own. You could rule them out as « not Swiss » however, as Cartier hails from Paris.

https://www.lesrhabilleurs.com/2024/02/la-cartier-tank-a-travers-le-temps/amp/
https://www.rescapement.com/blog/cartier-santos-a-brief-history?format=amp
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Couple random comments, as opposed to looking at the whole list.

It seems you are ranking based on horological significance, as opposed to recognition or even sales, which is great, but only one criteria. It also seems that your list is backward looking.

Based on that, I see why you ignored Cartier. However, Cartier is having a moment now. It seems to be rising in cost and sales, which is being supported by people who buy and wear watches, as opposed to afficionado or collectors alone. Cartier is an odd duck, but it seems to be a mistake to ignore.

I agree with where Tudor is placed. They got a lot of buzz in the last few years but are one of the brands that people buy and resell within a year or two. (In my opinion,Tudor is uncomfortable and awkward appearing, like a snake that swallowed a pig.)

I like that you elevated Longines. They are doing everything right. They are interesting, well crafted and relatively inexpensive for what they offer. They hit above their price point.

Not sure I like the lower class category, but I guess there should be one. Maybe call it entry level. I would have thought Doxa was similar to Oris. Plus, you are missing Hamilton, which is a strong seller with brand recognition.

If you include U.G., then you should include Gallet and Excelsior Park, which are equal in my mind. None of them are effectively currently being manufactured.

[/end random thoughts]
 
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I’d say this is one of the most civil “list discussions” yet. Normally didn’t make it too far before things went pear shaped. The watch industry however is not just Swiss anymore not is it monolithic, ALS is German, Cartier, Bulgari, Hermes etc produce some intriguing pieces, Seiko, Citizen, Casio, Timex, Bulova, Victorinox etc. are excluded as are the independents, some of which are Swiss some not. Agree with almost all the exceptions taken and with the heritage comments.
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Seiko is nowhere:whipped:.
I’d say this is one of the most civil “list discussions” yet. Normally didn’t make it too far before things went pear shaped. The watch industry however is not just Swiss anymore, ALS is German, Cartier, Bulgari, Hermes etc produce some intriguing pieces, Seiko and Citizen are excluded as are the independents.

Well it all goes back to the premise of the initial post. If the OP chooses to discuss Swiss watches and does it in a civil fashion, no reason why it should veer into anything else. But of course thread drifts are always allowed 😉
 
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Well it all goes back to the premise of the initial post. If the OP chooses to discuss Swiss watches and does it in a civil fashion, no reason why it should veer into anything else. But of course thread drifts are always allowed 😉


We haven't heard from the Bulova fans yet 😁
 
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We haven't heard from the Bulova fans yet 😁
I edited my comment. Covered off. FIFY.
 
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We are a long, long way away from the days of the vaunted trinity of PP, AP and VC being at the top of the heap of Swiss watchmaking. They basically run on historical fumes.....'they were great in the past so they are great now'. These lists and pyramids mean nothing....they are mostly nonsense.
 
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We are a long, long way away from the days of the vaunted trinity of PP, AP and VC being at the top of the heap of Swiss watchmaking. They basically run on historical fumes.....'they were great in the past so they are great now'. These lists and pyramids mean nothing....they are mostly nonsense.

Agree. I look at a standard issue PP movement—a 315 or 324—what you’ll get in a watch that sells in the low to mid 20s preowned; compare that to what you can get in a comparably priced Lange. It’s not even in the same ballpark. Granted, Lange doesn’t make its own cases (right?), and doesn’t have the storied history or exalted clientele that Patek does. But I’d venture to say that Lange is generally producing better un- or modestly-complicated dress watches than Patek.