- Posts
- 144
- Likes
- 111
stiofan
·Yes, and they should just buy new watches instead of supporting franken makers who ruin watches and this hobby.
The problem isn't franken watches; the problem is people trying to pass off franken watches as original.
Why is it so bad to put a "better" movement in an old watch?
Locked
The problem isn't franken watches; the problem is people trying to pass off franken watches as original.
- Posts
- 29,214
- Likes
- 75,491
- Posts
- 2,406
- Likes
- 6,949
Deafboy
··His Holiness Puer SurdusOn a slight tangent: how about the grey zone where a watch (or car) is restored to original condition? Do collectors shriek at this?
- Posts
- 25,980
- Likes
- 27,692
ulackfocus
·On a slight tangent: how about the grey zone where a watch (or car) is restored to original condition? Do collectors shrill at this?
Properly restored is almost as good as mint original. Not as valuable, but appreciated in the collector community.
Al, can you take over? I'm tired of trying to explain that if frankens weren't made in the first place, they'd never have any to try to pass off as correct. I guess if somebody isn't a collector they'll never understand how serious this problem is.
- Posts
- 144
- Likes
- 111
stiofan
·On a slight tangent: how about the grey zone where a watch (or car) is restored to original condition? Do collectors shriek at this?
No, they don't.
Same with paintings, clothes, historic buildings, etc.
It seems the world of watch owners, like everything else, has it extremists and everyone in between.
- Posts
- 1,819
- Likes
- 5,923
Andy K
·The problem isn't franken watches
Maybe you could argue that the franken is still desirable to some non-collector or that it is not a problem to the majority, but it isn't an act done to a watch without consequences that suck.
- Posts
- 2,828
- Likes
- 4,720
dennisthemenace
·Your replies to my posts always have a slightly combative tone ulackfocus.
Obviously I can 100% understand how a collector wouldn't want an expensive vintage watch to be a jumble of different parts.
But in the scenario where the new movement is an improved movement (more reliable, easier to service, more parts available), the fact that it's a frankenwatch is known, and the watch is for daily wearing, I don't fully understand how it's so horrendous.
Of course, hiding the fact that it's a franken is a different matter.
Maybe you yourself would, but I don't think you understand the concept of originality.
- Posts
- 144
- Likes
- 111
stiofan
·Would you spend megabucks on a 2915 and then drop in a 1861 because it has better parts availability?
Maybe you yourself would, but I don't think you understand the concept of originality.
No I wouldn't, but if a watch I'm fond of as a daily watch had a busted movement, and it was a struggle to find replacement parts, and I had the option of replacing the movement with something else which was reliable and easy to service, I would consider it. It's obviously not a situation I would want, but it's doesn't seem like something to get angry over.
- Posts
- 29,214
- Likes
- 75,491
Archer
··Omega Qualified Watchmakerstiofan - I generally hate car analogies, but one here seems appropriate. In the car world, what you are suggesting is not a restoration, but a restomod. There is a very big difference to collectors, and usually the value of the car after is very different.
It doesn't mean that both don't have their fans, but some collectors prefer originality over all else (like most people here, but not all). As Andy K and ulackfocus have pointed out, when you are dealing with a finite supply of cars or watches, people who prefer original examples are not fans of turning a good original example into a restomod.
It doesn't mean that both don't have their fans, but some collectors prefer originality over all else (like most people here, but not all). As Andy K and ulackfocus have pointed out, when you are dealing with a finite supply of cars or watches, people who prefer original examples are not fans of turning a good original example into a restomod.
- Posts
- 144
- Likes
- 111
stiofan
·stiofan - I generally hate car analogies, but one here seems appropriate. In the car world, what you are suggesting is not a restoration, but a restomod. There is a very big difference to collectors, and usually the value of the car after is very different.
It doesn't mean that both don't have their fans, but some collectors prefer originality over all else (like most people here, but not all). As Andy K and ulackfocus have pointed out, when you are dealing with a finite supply of cars or watches, people who prefer original examples are not fans of turning a good original example into a restomod.
But not everyone is a collector right?
It seems we keep going back to the purist argument where everything needs to be original. But most people aren't purists. In fact I'd say 99.99% of people who wear watches just like watches and would say "yes please" if their watchmaker told them he can replace their movement with something more reliable and easier to service.
Isn't it better their watch is more reliable and easier to service?
I understand it may not be good for you, but it's better for them, and it's their watch.
- Posts
- 144
- Likes
- 111
stiofan
·Anyway, I wasn't trying to start a big discussion!
We all have better things to be doing with our time.
We all have better things to be doing with our time.
- Posts
- 29,214
- Likes
- 75,491
Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerBut not everyone is a collector right?
It seems we keep going back to the purist argument where everything needs to be original. But most people aren't purists. In fact I'd say 99.99% of people who wear watches just like watches and would say "yes please" if their watchmaker told them he can replace their movement with something more reliable and easier to service.
Isn't it better their watch is more reliable and easier to service?
I understand it may not be good for you, but it's better for them, and it's their watch.
So you commented in this thread:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/vintage-omega-with-the-omega-symbol-but-no-name-is-it-real.39791/
Saying: "I am so confused why they did that to the face."
Someone at the time thought this was an improvement, likely because the dial was not in good shape, yet you don't agree. Why is it that this modification was unacceptable to you, but swapping out for a different movement is okay?
Isn't it better that this dial was made to be more easily read by the owner? I understand it may not be good for you, but it's better for them, and it's their watch, right?
- Posts
- 144
- Likes
- 111
stiofan
·So you commented in this thread:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/vintage-omega-with-the-omega-symbol-but-no-name-is-it-real.39791/
Saying: "I am so confused why they did that to the face."
Someone at the time thought this was an improvement, likely because the dial was not in good shape, yet you don't agree. Why is it that this modification was unacceptable to you, but swapping out for a different movement is okay?
Isn't it better that this dial was made to be more easily read by the owner? I understand it may not be good for you, but it's better for them, and it's their watch, right?
Come on, you're being silly now. You're comparing apples and oranges. I think 99.9% of people would think that painted dial looks ridiculous.
I can easily list advantages of putting a new movement into a watch:
* More reliable
* Easier to service
* Cheaper to service
(I know there are disadvantages too).
But painting a dial using lumpy house paint, covering up the text and minute markings? Feel free to share the advantages with me so I can better understand.
- Posts
- 2,828
- Likes
- 4,720
dennisthemenace
·Anyway, I wasn't trying to start a big discussion!
We all have better things to be doing with our time.
Seems to me you are just posting for postings sake and don't have anything better to do with your time.
- Posts
- 272
- Likes
- 374
ossfm
·For example, if I took a 5xx movement out of a vintage Omega and replaced it with 5yy (which is considered a better movement - perhaps more reliable with more spare parts), is the only issue that the watch is no longer original, or is there some other problem?
I haven't read all 3 pages of replies yet, but here is my opinion.
When you start talking about replacing parts because they are better, you are talking about functionality or performance. It performs better at keeping time and you can keep it performing better by having more spare parts available. At this point, you have left the collecting world and are operating in the world of tools. The watch has become a tool to keep better time.
There is nothing wrong with that. The original purpose of the watch (hundreds of years ago) was to keep time. Since the watch is just a tool that tells time, you don't care how it looks or what the heritage is. You just want to know if you are late for an appointment.
However, you must remember that this forum is populated more by people that care just as much, and probably more so, about how the watch looks and its heritage and history and less that it keeps good time. Now you enter the world of the collector.
There are threads on OF about the statement "keeps good time" and what it means. Some collectors don't care if the watch gains/loses some minutes per day. They care about the look/feel/heritage and are happy to reset the time when they wear the watch.
Collectors celebrate the design and pedigree; they celebrate period correctness and faithfulness to the original.
The answer to the question really depends on who will buy this watch with the different movement. If you sell it to a person who wants to know the time precisely, they will value the watch more. If you sell it to a collector, they will value it less.
- Posts
- 144
- Likes
- 111
stiofan
·If you didn't want to start a discussion, why bother posting in the first place?
Seems to me you are just posting for postings sake and don't have anything better to do with your time.
I said *big* discussion. Kind of changes the meaning of the sentence if you leave that word out...
- Posts
- 29,214
- Likes
- 75,491
Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerCome on, you're being silly now. You're comparing apples and oranges. I think 99.9% of people would think that painted dial looks ridiculous.
I can easily list advantages of putting a new movement into a watch:
* More reliable
* Easier to service
* Cheaper to service
(I know there are disadvantages too).
But painting a dial using lumpy house paint, covering up the text and minute markings? Feel free to share the advantages with me so I can better understand.
I didn't point this out to tell you that there were "advantages" to painting a dial to look like that.
What that person did to that dial, and what you are suggesting is "okay" and even a good thing to do with movements, is the same thing to most here. They are equally as bad and for a collector there are no advantages to either scenario.
Most here are collectors (that should have been very obvious to you by now I would think) and value originality. Continuing to tell us all it's okay and that 99.99% of people would be okay with it is going to get frustrating to both sides, because that's irrelevant to most here.
If you have a different opinion that's fine, but it's not one we share.
- Posts
- 12,936
- Likes
- 22,379
- Posts
- 2,406
- Likes
- 6,949
- Posts
- 144
- Likes
- 111
stiofan
·I didn't point this out to tell you that there were "advantages" to painting a dial to look like that.
What that person did to that dial, and what you are suggesting is "okay" and even a good thing to do with movements, is the same thing to most here. They are equally as bad and for a collector there are no advantages to either scenario.
Most here are collectors (that should have been very obvious to you by now I would think) and value originality. Continuing to tell us all it's okay and that 99.99% of people would be okay with it is going to get frustrating to both sides, because that's irrelevant to most here.
If you have a different opinion that's fine, but it's not one we share.
Obviously I know you weren't being serious by comparing my question to that painted dial. But it was a bad comparison, you can't blame me for that.
What this thread has taught me is some people have extreme opinions on watches, and some don't.
As usual, the correct answer is probably somewhere in the middle.
Also, I'm not sure why some people are getting so angry. It's just a question about a watch. Come on now...
