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Why is it so bad to put a "better" movement in an old watch?

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stiofan stiofan
I can understand why replacing a good, original movement with a fake or inferior movement is a problem, but sometimes I see the movement has been replaced with something better, and everyone screams run away.

You either get the concept of originality or you don't. While you understand the definition of the word "Original" you don't get the full weight of the meaning to a collector. If you did, this thread wouldn't exist because the mere thought of doing what you suggest ("upgrading" the movement to a more efficient / newer version) would not even be a consideration.

Sounds like you should stick with modern watches.
 
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micampe micampe
Well… http://jalopnik.com/this-is-the-worlds-first-turbodiesel-porsche-911-1545469388

Just read that - the Porsche 911 is by no means driving refinement. They're known for being exactly the opposite - a beast that will lash out and go out of control if you lose focus for just a split second.

STANDY STANDY
I do like a nice clean movement on my watches
image.jpeg

Wow, that's a great picture! Whoever shot that really knows how to capture the beauty of that caliber. ( 😁 )
 
STANDY
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U ulackfocus
Wow, that's a great picture! Whoever shot that really knows how to capture the beauty of that caliber. ( 😁 )

Only cases I open have beers in them
 
micampe
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U ulackfocus
Just read that - the Porsche 911 is by no means driving refinement. They're known for being exactly the opposite - a beast that will lash out and go out of control if you lose focus for just a split second.
I think by “driving refinement” they mean “keep banging on a poor design decision until you can properly steer the car”.
 
Andy K
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stiofan stiofan
I can understand why replacing a good, original movement with a fake or inferior movement is a problem, but sometimes I see the movement has been replaced with something better, and everyone screams run away.

I would argue that the phrase "replaced with something better" is an oxymoron. By definition there is no such thing as a movement that is "better" than the one installed at the factory prior to initial sale and was intended to go with the watch.
 
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Andy K Andy K
I would argue that the phrase "replaced with something better" is an oxymoron. By definition there is no such thing as a movement that is "better" than the one installed at the factory prior to initial sale and was intended to go with the watch.

Yes, by the definition of a collector. Our OP has shown with this thread that he's not a collector, he just enjoys watches. HUGE difference.

Maybe this will help explain the mentality of a collector:

If watch collecting had a manifesto, the ideology it would be based on would be originality.
If watch collectors were a cult, we'd worship at the alter of originality.

To regular people, the word original has an entry in the dictionary to define it. To watch collectors (and collectors of all valuable vintage and antique items) original is more than a word, it's the life blood of their hobby.
 
Steve9pm
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I'm baffled by the question.

If you found a fossil, say a dinosaur tooth, would you want to coat it in steel to upgrade it?
If you owned a family heirloom, rich with heritage, would you want to change it?
If you had Michael Jordan's last championship-worn jersey, would you wash it to make it cleaner?
 
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Steve9pm Steve9pm
If you had Michael Jordan's last championship-worn jersey, would you wash it to make it cleaner?

Actually, what the OP is suggesting is that you would change the number and put LeBron's name on the back because he's more modern.
 
gatorcpa
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stiofan stiofan
can definitely see an advantage to "upgrading" a watch to a better movement if it's your daily wear (and you've no intention on selling it).
We have a term for what you are suggesting, it's called "Frankenwatch". No different than the Frankenstein monster from book and movie fame. A collection of parts that work, but were not meant to be together. On its face, I see nothing wrong with doing this, other than it diminishes the value of the watch.

The issues comes later when you (or your heirs) sell the watch. Maybe they won't know what you did and sell the watch on without knowledge or disclosure of the replacement movement. Some other noobie comes along and pays for something not worth anywhere close to the price.

Now someone has been hurt by your action, even though you may no longer be around to see it.

Knowingly "frankenizing" a watch is like putting a moustache on the Mona Lisa. Can you do it? Yes. Should you? That's another story.
gatorcpa
 
gatorcpa
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U ulackfocus
Actually, what the OP is suggesting is that you would change the number and put LeBron's name on the back because he's more modern
And change the logo on the front to the Heat or Cavs. All three have similar colors. 😉
gatorcpa
 
stiofan
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U ulackfocus
You either get the concept of originality or you don't. While you understand the definition of the word "Original" you don't get the full weight of the meaning to a collector. If you did, this thread wouldn't exist because the mere thought of doing what you suggest ("upgrading" the movement to a more efficient / newer version) would not even be a consideration.

Sounds like you should stick with modern watches.

Your replies to my posts always have a slightly combative tone ulackfocus.

Obviously I can 100% understand how a collector wouldn't want an expensive vintage watch to be a jumble of different parts.

But in the scenario where the new movement is an improved movement (more reliable, easier to service, more parts available), the fact that it's a frankenwatch is known, and the watch is for daily wearing, I don't fully understand how it's so horrendous.

Of course, hiding the fact that it's a franken is a different matter.
 
Mouse_at_Large
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Andy K Andy K
I would argue that the phrase "replaced with something better" is an oxymoron. By definition there is no such thing as a movement that is "better" than the one installed at the factory prior to initial sale and was intended to go with the watch.

Better is to some extent a subjective judgement, if you mean better from a collectors standpoint, I can fully understand how any departure from factory original specification reduces the appeal. However, if you include fuctionally improved in your definition of better, then a newer/improved movement with say better accuracy, longer power reserve, longer mtbf of parts and service intervals or some other upgrade may well satisfy a particular type of owner.

I don't really see the attraction, but I don't see the harm as long as it's disclosed when selling by the owner who had it "upgraded". With regard to the possibility some some future buyer being "duped" into purchasing a franken at some unknown time down the line, quite frankly, that's not the original owner's concern. It's his or hers watch and they can do with it as they like.
 
gatorcpa
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stiofan stiofan
But in the scenario where the new movement is an improved movement (more reliable, easier to service, more parts available), the fact that it's a frankenwatch is known, and the watch is for daily wearing, I don't fully understand how it's so horrendous.
It depends what you are suggesting. First of all, I'm not sure what you mean about "upgraded" movements. Are you talking about swapping an Omega cal. 565 for a cal. 564 chronometer movement? If so, you'll find that there really isn't a whole lot of difference technically and parts are just as (non) available for either. Same would be true with most other manufacturers. Have you considered that dials have feet positioned in such a way that they will fit only certain movement plates? So now you're going to alter the dials, too? Ugh, a whole lotta not good.

When you start moving into modern generic movements, like ETA automatics and Unitas manual winds, have you considered that they just may not fit just any watch case? That movement clamping systems are totally different? See dial issues above. This is going to cost you a lot of time and money to retrofit modern movements into vintage watch cases.

Your proposition sounds a lot easier in theory than in practice.

Now if you're talking about replacing fine mechanical movements to quartz, I'll just have Dennis take out the ole' Louisville Slugger. People who do this should just be put out of their misery, IMHO.
gatorcpa
 
Nobel Prize
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It's also a matter of what you consider a watch to be. If you limit your perception to the parts you see then for sure what's inside doesn't matter and you'll save some money....if you consider the watch "as a whole" then there's the answer. It's either "whole" or it is not. And the degree at which it isn't is relevant every time
 
Steve9pm
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stiofan stiofan
Obviously I can 100% understand how a collector wouldn't want an expensive vintage watch to be a jumble of different parts.

stiofan stiofan
Hi all

For example, if I took a 5xx movement out of a vintage Omega and replaced it with 5yy (which is considered a better movement - perhaps more reliable with more spare parts), is the only issue that the watch is no longer original, or is there some other problem?

Based on your own words...it seems like you completely understand, so I'm not sure what we're all still doing here.

Vintage is vintage, whether it's expensive or not. If you "upgrade" it, it's no longer vintage.
 
Archer
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stiofan stiofan
But in the scenario where the new movement is an improved movement (more reliable, easier to service, more parts available), the fact that it's a frankenwatch is known, and the watch is for daily wearing, I don't fully understand how it's so horrendous.

This watch once had a nice vintage mechanical movement...



Then someone "upgraded" it to a movement that was more accurate, reliable, easier to service, and had more easily obtained replacement parts:

 
U
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stiofan stiofan
Your replies to my posts always have a slightly combative tone ulackfocus.

Combative? Only if you take it that way. I'm blunt. I pull no punches. I've never been accused of beating around the bush. I've also never been misunderstood either. If it rubs you the wrong way, well.... I'm not going to change.

stiofan stiofan
Obviously I can 100% understand how a collector wouldn't want an expensive vintage watch to be a jumble of different parts.

I don't think you 100% do. If you did, this thread wouldn't have been even considered let alone posted.

stiofan stiofan
But in the scenario where the new movement is an improved movement (more reliable, easier to service, more parts available), the fact that it's a frankenwatch is known, and the watch is for daily wearing, I don't fully understand how it's so horrendous.

If you want to do that, why not just buy a whole entire new watch? 😕 That way the case would be an improvement as it would still be water resistant, the dial would be an improvement because it would be cleaner, and all the parts would be better than a watch with 40+ years of wear on it.

stiofan stiofan
Of course, hiding the fact that it's a franken is a different matter.

That's one thing we 100% agree on.
 
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Archer Archer
This watch once had a nice vintage mechanical movement...



Then someone "upgraded" it to a movement that was more accurate, reliable, easier to service, and had more easily obtained replacement parts:


AAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! 😲 🤦

The only worse thing I've seen was that Seamaster Melbourne XVI that somebody stuffed a quartz movement into. I wonder if @kyle L still has pictures of it? It was years ago on a forum far, far away.
 
stiofan
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stiofan said:
Obviously I can 100% understand how a collector wouldn't want an expensive vintage watch to be a jumble of different parts.

U ulackfocus
I don't think you 100% do. If you did, this thread wouldn't have been even considered let alone posted.

Not everyone is a collector, and it doesn't make sense to try to define every watch owner as a collector.

Some people, like me, just like to wear nice watches.

I am absolutely certain there are loads of people who wouldn't care or even know if their pretty watch has a 5XX movement or a 5YY movement. Their main priorities would be it is pretty and reliable and easy to service.
 
U
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stiofan stiofan
Not everyone is a collector, and it doesn't make sense to try to define every watch owner as a collector.

Some people, like me, just like to wear nice watches.

Yes, that's correct and I made mention of that in an earlier post.

stiofan stiofan
I am absolutely certain there are loads of people who wouldn't care or even know if their pretty watch has a 5XX movement or a 5YY movement. Their main priorities would be it is pretty and reliable and easy to service.

Yes, and they should just buy new watches instead of supporting franken makers who ruin watches and this hobby.
 
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