Who made this movement?

ConElPueblo · Jul 8, 2021

ChrisN
So, no markings in the case nor crystal. The movement is really not a high end movement, not with that finish and the cheapest balance wheel available. The dial is not marked "OM" but is solid gold? I don't see how you have determined that the dial is gold.

If you see prototype, then fair enough.

I see a generic case, cheap movement with an Omega dial, hands and crown.

We all have our own opinions and I won't convince anyone in the same way that you are not convincing me. I'm happy to disagree.

Enjoy, Chris

I think we are getting things mixed up.

The gold dial is on the watch in the thread I link to - not either of the two in this thread. There are non-gold dials for this ref, so that shouldn't be a smoking gun.

My points are that first, if this was a period fake, there is no way either dial or case were as good as on the one in question. 1:1 Omega fakes is a very new concept. Secondly, if this was a NEWLY made fake, the question would be "why bother?". It is not really a collectible Omega and if you were to go to such lengths creating a fake, why would you choose THIS Constellation and then leave out markings on the case and choose to make a dial leaving out the "Chronometer - Officially Certified"?

From a collector's standpoint - and a commercial one - it just doesn't make sense.

If it is a Franken, then why are there two of the same type using an obscure movement? While it may seem cheaply manufactured, it is still a slim, high-beat automatic movement with date - why not use something more readily available?

I just don't see the point of it being either a franken or a fake. If it IS a prototype Omega movement (or just a never-put-into-production Omega), the monetary aspect would still be negligible. We're talking 70's Constellations here, not rare Speedmasters.

Anyway, looking forward to learning more here!

JackDaniels83 · Jul 9, 2021

ChrisN
So, no markings in the case nor crystal. The movement is really not a high end movement, not with that finish and the cheapest balance wheel available. The dial is not marked "OM" but is solid gold? I don't see how you have determined that the dial is gold.

If you see prototype, then fair enough.

I see a generic case, cheap movement with an Omega dial, hands and crown.

We all have our own opinions and I won't convince anyone in the same way that you are not convincing me. I'm happy to disagree.

Enjoy, Chris

Cheap movement? Name a cheap automatic watch with date and only 6.6mm overall thickness or a cheap automatic movement measuring only 3.2mm.

Geezer · Jul 9, 2021

Hi,

It seems like a very interesting movement. Simply from the appearance it looks like a high quality movement, and I am pretty sure it is of Swiss or at the very least western European original.

The oscillating weight attachment reminded me of some old F. Piguet movements that I have seen in the past, but that have been discontinued (at least as far as I know). At this point, I am reasonably sure that the movement in your watch shares the same origin as the F. Piguet or Blancpain 6511. Please see the picture below.

Obviously the watch seen here was produced quite a bit later than the Omega's in your example. But the location of the gear train and winding train is the same. As well as the rotor shows a lot of similarities. One difference I see is that on the Omega, the ratchet wheel is assembled over the ratchet wheel, whereas on the F. Piguet the ratchet wheel sits underneath. However, it would appear to me that these two movements have the same origin, with the Blancpain shown here being an evolution (with plenty of other refinements and better finishing). I've added some of the pictures below for ease of comparison.

I hope that helps somewhat in your search for the origin of this movement.

JackDaniels83 · Jul 9, 2021

That's a good match. Omega worked together with Piguet before the 70s and later. So it is possible, that Piguet made a new ultra slim Automatic movement for Omega, which never made it so series production.

Geezer · Jul 9, 2021

That is indeed possible. In any case it is an interesting find, and I have no doubt that it is all original.

I've been trying to find more information on this F. Piguet/Blancpain movement, but haven't found much. I used to have a book with a comprehensive line up of early F. Piguet movements. Let me see if I can still find it.

I always love a good movement mystery. 😀

JackDaniels83
That's a good match. Omega worked together with Piguet before the 70s and later. So it is possible, that Piguet made a new ultra slim Automatic movement for Omega, which never made it so series production.

padders · Jul 9, 2021

Umm while I respect that this is not copy junk and could well be a prototype and have said so all along, I can't see any similarity between the OP movement and the Blancpain shown whatsoever.

JackDaniels83 · Jul 9, 2021

padders
Umm while I respect that this is not copy junk and could well be a prototype and have said so all along, I can't see any similarity between the OP movement and the Blancpain shown whatsoever.

The locking mechanism, that holds the rotor in place is 1:1 identical on both movements. Both have a 4 spoke balance wheel. The wheel train bridge is also very similar. Fr. Piguet is known for very slim movements and has worked with Omega before.

aprax · Jul 9, 2021

Geezer
The oscillating weight attachment reminded me of some old F. Piguet movements that I have seen in the past, but that have been discontinued (at least as far as I know). At this point, I am reasonably sure that the movement in your watch shares the same origin as the F. Piguet or Blancpain 6511. Please see the picture below.

If I remember correctly the Blancpain (Rayville) extra slim 6511 movement is closely related to the Omega 711 family. After all, all those firms, Omega, Rayville, Lemania, Tissot, were part of one stable just before the quartz crisis hit in the 70s. What you're saying seems very plausible to me.

ChrisN · Jul 9, 2021

I see @mac_omega (as I recollect but I'd need to check my mails, and I really can't be bothered) removed his post where he said something like "it's a gold dial and surely that makes it unlikely to be a fake" so, my previous comment doesn't make sense. Perhaps he re-evaluated his opinion? At least his opinion might have added some credence to your thoughts.

To me, it's not good and I refer you to the comment @Puma_135o made on page 1. You can try to convince yourselves that it's the "missing link" of Swiss watch design but, it is an Omega dial and hands in an unmarked case with an unmarked movement so, it's a fake to me.

Of course, it bears some similarities to "insert random movement calibre here" as has been noted but no-one has shown it's an Omega calibre in an Omega case with an Omega dial and hands - if you don't see that as a fake, then I will try and source a very nice red Sub with a Seagull movement to sell you.

Probably sensible that I "unfollow" this thread as it is a joke now.

JackDaniels83
The locking mechanism, that holds the rotor in place is 1:1 identical on both movements. Both have a 4 spoke balance wheel. The wheel train bridge is also very similar. Fr. Piguet is known for very slim movements and has worked with Omega before.

No, hang on, perhaps it's an Fr. Piguet movement with an Omega dial and a "insert random case maker" case so, that makes it all legit. You really couldn't make this up.

Greatly amused, Chris

Geezer · Jul 9, 2021

Excellent point, Aprax! Please see below a picture of the Omega 711.

As has been noted, the lay out of all the gears (gear train, automatic winding train, crown and ratchet wheel) on all movements is identical (plus the rotor attachment). This is not coincidence.

I have no clue who originally designed this line of movements. It may be Omega or F. Piguet or it may very well be another Swiss company in the 60's (or even earlier). However, I don't doubt that these movements share their origin.

If I would have to make a wild guess, it would be that Omega used these more "rough" ebauches for economical reasons as these were not good years for the watch industry (in fact very bad). Or Omega decided to use the same ebauche as used for the 711 but with added date mechanism. A lot of stuff that went on during the 70's and 80's most brands would prefer to forget about.

Or it could be a fake? Maybe. I prefer to keep my mind open.

aprax
If I remember correctly the Blancpain (Rayville) extra slim 6511 movement is closely related to the Omega 711 family. After all, all those firms, Omega, Rayville, Lemania, Tissot, were part of one stable just before the quartz crisis hit in the 70s. What you're saying seems very plausible to me.

Geezer · Jul 9, 2021

It is impressive how sure you are of yourself.

ChrisN
I see @mac_omega (as I recollect but I'd need to check my mails, and I really can't be bothered) removed his post where he said something like "it's a gold dial and surely that makes it unlikely to be a fake" so, my previous comment doesn't make sense. Perhaps he re-evaluated his opinion? At least his opinion might have added some credence to your thoughts.

To me, it's not good and I refer you to the comment @Puma_135o made on page 1. You can try to convince yourselves that it's the "missing link" of Swiss watch design but, it is an Omega dial and hands in an unmarked case with an unmarked movement so, it's a fake to me.

Of course, it bears some similarities to "insert random movement calibre here" as has been noted but no-one has shown it's an Omega calibre in an Omega case with an Omega dial and hands - if you don't see that as a fake, then I will try and source a very nice red Sub with a Seagull movement to sell you.

Probably sensible that I "unfollow" this thread as it is a joke now.

No, hang on, perhaps it's an Fr. Piguet movement with an Omega dial and a "insert random case maker" case so, that makes it all legit. You really couldn't make this up.

Greatly amused, Chris

Foo2rama · Jul 9, 2021

Geezer
Excellent point, Aprax! Please see below a picture of the Omega 711.

As has been noted, the lay out of all the gears (gear train, automatic winding train, crown and ratchet wheel) on all movements is identical (plus the rotor attachment). This is not coincidence.

I have no clue who originally designed this line of movements. It may be Omega or F. Piguet or it may very well be another Swiss company in the 60's (or even earlier). However, I don't doubt that these movements share their origin.

If I would have to make a wild guess, it would be that Omega used these more "rough" ebauches for economical reasons as these were not good years for the watch industry (in fact very bad). Or Omega decided to use the same ebauche as used for the 711 but with added date mechanism. A lot of stuff that went on during the 70's and 80's most brands would prefer to forget about.

Or it could be a fake? Maybe. I prefer to keep my mind open.

It's definitely that family of movement. no question...

What's weird is ranfft has 6511 linked to that movement, but it doesn't appear anywhere on the page.

watchyouwant · Jul 9, 2021

Can not really contribute anything of substance here..... Still doubts. But I'm happy to see discussions like that. This is the soul of research driven internet fora. As long as we can contribute like this, all is well. These fly by evaluation freebie demands kill a forum in the long run. experienced members do no longer bother to answer the always same demands. And after a while stop all together. Like the Old vintage Rolex Forum. In the old format there were bitter fought battles about the " truth " of vintage Rolex watches. Friends and enemies made. But future fights created new alliances. Always interesting. Then the older members were somehow saturated and stayed away. New format created, ownership changed. Now it is a shadow of its former glory. Lots of knowledge lost and the never ending new questions.... Is it real? Fake? Value? Let's disagree here. Research shared. Questioned. Points made...... Kind regards. Achim

Uscjake87 · Jul 11, 2021

Could it be a tissot movement? The rotor design is similar. There are also omega/tissot collaborations that are unmarked. Check out this link.

Out of TIME! · Oct 9, 2021

JackDaniels83
I came across this movement housed in a golden case. Whether the movement, nor the case show any markings or numbers.

A second one was sold here last year:

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/omega-prototyp-automatic-1135586130/

Can someone tell me anything about the movement? Data:

Diameter: 10.5'''
Thickens: only 3.2mm
Functions: no second; date with quick set function; TrioVis micro regulator
Beat rate: 28.800A/h

The lay out of the jewels, the retaining tounge for the rotor screams Omega.
If you pull up images of the 500 cal series & compaison along with the 1012, 1020, 1022 caliber you can see similarites. May have been an escapee from the turbulent shake up at that time in Switzerland. The other one you ref. to states a Prototype.
It is quite amazing the Swiss watch industry survived & pulled through thoses times.
The Swatch group bought up a lot of names & companies, Omega being one of the lucky ones. So, my guess is that movement is an original & most likely a small run or prototype that sliped out of the factory. You might have to do the old figerprint images of the set bridge for identification.
CIAO! Mike

JimInOz · Oct 9, 2021

Out of TIME!
.....You might have to do the old fingerprint images of the set bridge for identification.
CIAO! Mike

Good suggestion 👍.

JackDaniels83 · Nov 2, 2021

Out of TIME!
[...] You might have to do the old figerprint images of the set bridge for identification.
CIAO! Mike

Nice idea. But I'm not willing to risk loosing parts (small springs etc.) while removing the calendar works, because it is definitely a very rare movement and parts can not be found.

Regards,
Daniel

Who made this movement?

ConElPueblo

JackDaniels83

Geezer

JackDaniels83

Geezer

padders

JackDaniels83

aprax

ChrisN

Geezer

Geezer

Foo2rama

watchyouwant

Uscjake87

Out of TIME!

JimInOz

JackDaniels83

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