<walking on eggshells...> - recognizing cosmetically enhanced 1675's?

djmusicman · May 30, 2018

@JACK G looks good to me, I’d leave it like that, it’s not over polished. Rocco could weld metal to the side of the case and then recut the chamfer but it’s so much work for such a small detail. I guess that’s why he didn’t want to do it.

LAWW recut the chamfer without adding metal and it’s true that the lugs do get thinner when this is done, most people seem happy with the results though.

In any case, you’d have to look for a long time to find another watch with an insert as nice as your one.

Lonestar · May 30, 2018

Guys (and gals, maybe, who knows?!?)

many thanks for the generous knowledge that you are transparently sharing with us noobs 👍

After being exposed to all these examples including the case refinish above, as well as reading again and again the shocking-but-true list that @watchknut posted on the first page, I guess I can reasonably say that nothing looks impossible for a good craftsman to recreate in terms of patina and/or finish. And if this work is done by an expert craftsman, it will be virtually indistinguishable from any original part but by the utmost seasoned collector (and even then...) 📖

Moreover, we all seem to agree that the continuous, recent inflow of "perfectly, homogeneously patinated" 50-60 y.o. GMT's appears somewhat statistically disturbing. Especially when GMT's market values are reaching new records all the time.

The logical conclusion to the above is that it is impossible that at least some of the 1675's that are hitting the market these days are not "cosmetically enhanced".

Some have rightfully asked "so what, If there isn't anyone who can make the difference anyway?". My take is this: the reason why a gorgeous-looking 1675's value has reached $15K at the time of writing is, this is what supply and demand have converged to for genuine vintage watches. The reason why some watches have been tampered with to look better (it cannot be statistically otherwise, remember) is because, in their pre-cosmetic-surgery condition, they were not worth the $15K that finer examples commanded. So someone has spent a $3K (random #1 number picked) enhancement job on a $7K (random #2 number picked) watch to be able to make it look like other original $15K GMT's. This is not genuine supply - this is artificial supply... I cannot think any of you who bought some of these watches (there MUST be some here - again, statistics... we just don't know which ones are concerned) would say "Oh, I don't care that I paid $15K for a watch that got a nose and a boob job to bump its value 50%, really" if somehow it could be proofed that their watch has been enhanced in such a way. I certainly wouldn't take it easy - I'd go bonkers and bang my head against the wall and possibly do something silly like taking a couple of days off and drive to the seller's shed with a few friends I'd recruited at the local pub and handed over baseball bats to so we can have a casual discussion with the seller on that topic.

Alas, again, today there is very little to no way to know. For this very reason - I will stay away from these abnormally abundant, perfect-looking 1675's for now... too risky for me. I've never had a 5-digit-priced-watch, that's a lot of cash to play with, especially if in the end there is a doubt it should really have been a 4-digit-one.

Thanks all for the uber-valuable input. OF is a gem of a community 🥰

Best Regards,
Paul

Lonestar · May 30, 2018

U ulackfocus
FYI, the phrase is "walking on eggshells". 😉

Thank you for spending a few seconds on this, always happy to learn 😀I have corrected the original title!

frederico · May 30, 2018

This thread is super-interesting reading, thanks all. Not much to contribute other than there's a very interesting challenge in establishing provenance. I'm working on a wider more technical solution to this problem for the watch market in general, please get in touch via PM if it's interesting and you want to get involved.

Lonestar
Thank you for spending a few seconds on this, always happy to learn 😀I have corrected the original title!

I'm going to come across as a massive pedant here so apologies in advance, but isn't the term "treading on eggshells"?

ulackfocus · May 30, 2018

frederico
I'm going to come across as a massive pedant here so apologies in advance, but isn't the term "treading on eggshells"?

Pedantry is semi-acceptable here, as it's a part of all forum life.

Archer · May 30, 2018

ChicagoFrog
Cliff Notes version for this post though - THIS is how bevels should look if it's a piece that's been used / has an aged and worn bezel like the one here. If the lines were nearly perfect with only the smallest of superficial scuffs, my antenna would be way up since the bezel tells a different story (see second picture).

As long as you realize that this too, can be reproduced...

ICONO · May 30, 2018

“ I'd go bonkers and bang my head against the wall and possibly do something silly like taking a couple of days off and drive to the seller's shed witha few friends I'd recruited at the local pub and handed over baseball bats to so we can have a casual discussion with the seller on that topic“

( Always a good idea, to advertise one’s potential acts, on a Global Forum........ )

I believe a certain Mr Simpson, found recourse to the same action.......and that ended well

bazamu · May 30, 2018

Archer
As long as you realize that this too, can be reproduced...

Of course - I think I said in the post that it could be done. That’s why the golden rule will always be “buy the seller.”

JACK G · May 30, 2018

djmusicman
@JACK G looks good to me, I’d leave it like that, it’s not over polished. Rocco could weld metal to the side of the case and then recut the chamfer but it’s so much work for such a small detail. I guess that’s why he didn’t want to do it.

LAWW recut the chamfer without adding metal and it’s true that the lugs do get thinner when this is done, most people seem happy with the results though.

In any case, you’d have to look for a long time to find another watch with an insert as nice as your one.

Thanks again @djmusicman.

I am an ex 'old school' graphic designer and photographer ie. drawing board and pens and pre digital cameras!

All my working life has been detail, detail, detail - couple this with my OCD and you have a deadly cocktail when it comes to the condition of a watch.

I used to try to live by the Confucius quotation "Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without" but I am a diamond with no flaws kind of guy.

I think I managed it with my 16800.........

...............and want my 16750 to match.

My 16750 bezel was the reason I bought this example and will be going onto the replacement GMT - if I ever find one!

Fost · May 30, 2018

frederico
This thread is super-interesting reading, thanks all. Not much to contribute other than there's a very interesting challenge in establishing provenance. I'm working on a wider more technical solution to this problem for the watch market in general, please get in touch via PM if it's interesting and you want to get involved.

I'm going to come across as a massive pedant here so apologies in advance, but isn't the term "treading on eggshells"?

I would be very interested about that... and i understand it is safer to discuss through pm as all
The Information provide in this thread can certainly help faker or others to reproduce the details we are looking for to establish authenticity ...
But my main question remains how can we testify that something is original vs redone where all
Those details are perfectly reproduce with even a factory quality ... it the repro is as good as the original and if , though the years , the informations about the redone job is lost ( intentionally or not ) ... how will we determine the thruth ? I think it will be a personal judgement and We will have to take our responsibility to buy ... or not ...

ICONO · May 30, 2018

JACK G
I am an ex 'old school' graphic designer and photographer ie. drawing board and pens and pre digital cameras!

All my working life has been detail, detail, detail - couple this with my OCD and you have a deadly cocktail when it comes to the condition of a watch.

A near identical background......but 25 years ‘High End’ Advertising Photographer, in North of England

Completely understand the ‘detail’ comment !

djmusicman · May 30, 2018

Lonestar
I guess I can reasonably say that nothing looks impossible for a good craftsman to recreate in terms of patina and/or finish. And if this work is done by an expert craftsman, it will be virtually indistinguishable from any original

I'm in the minority here but I think the fact that they can restore cases to factory spec these days should be celebrated.

It's the old technique that should be criticized. The watch has a few small dings.... OK lets shove the case against a polishing wheel. The result is a soft looking case with rounded bevels. This should be lamented.

What if your new watch (or even your minty vintage one) gets an unsightly ding.... You are offered the choice:
1. Laser weld that ding and have a perfect looking case again.
2. Use the polishing wheel and lose the shape of your case but at least it's not cheating.

It's 2018, they can make the case of your badly polished vintage watch look better. Fantastic.

watchknut · May 30, 2018

My polished 1675...a recut would do wonders, but I am holding off.

Archer · May 30, 2018

djmusicman
What if your new watch (or even your minty vintage one) gets an unsightly ding.... You are offered the choice:
1. Laser weld that ding and have a perfect looking case again.
2. Use the polishing wheel and lose the shape of your case but at least it's not cheating.

I'll add:

3 - Leave it alone.

and

4 - Have it touched up by someone who actually knows what they are doing.

JACK G · May 30, 2018

djmusicman
I'm in the minority here but I think the fact that they can restore cases to factory spec these days should be celebrated.

It's the old technique that should be criticized. The watch has a few small dings.... OK lets shove the case against a polishing wheel. The result is a soft looking case with rounded bevels. This should be lamented.

What if your new watch (or even your minty vintage one) gets an unsightly ding.... You are offered the choice:
1. Laser weld that ding and have a perfect looking case again.
2. Use the polishing wheel and lose the shape of your case but at least it's not cheating.

It's 2018, they can make the case of your badly polished vintage watch look better. Fantastic.

A minority maybe but I'm with you on this.

omegastar · May 30, 2018

I just finished refinishing those 3. They will be soon on the market.

I think I did a pretty good job and no one will ever know.

ulackfocus · May 30, 2018

omegastar
I think I did a pretty good job and no one will ever know.

'Cept us now - and pretty much any hardcore Rolex junkie.

sxl2004 · May 30, 2018

Because everything nice is questioned, ultimately the truly beat up and polished watches will rise.
Only for the fakers to over polish there welded cases again...........
👎

djmusicman · May 30, 2018

Archer
I'll add:
3 - Leave it alone.

Haha yeah but the ding is unsightly! Option 3 isn't a possibility, it's making your OCD go into overdrive, you can't sleep, you think you're going mad, you've even joined a watch forum 😁