<walking on eggshells...> - recognizing cosmetically enhanced 1675's?

djmusicman · May 28, 2018

https://www.chrono24.fr/rolex/1978-gmt-master-1675--id8385101.htm

Here's a new listing on Chrono24 Very clean chamfers on this one.

A few tips (in general, not talking about the Chrono24 watch specifically) Look at how close the lug holes are to the chamfer, too close and you can tell that the case has been recut. Look at the clasp, it seems a bit odd to me when I see a pristine case but a clearly polished crown on the clasp. The crown guard is the hardest part for a refinisher to get right, some recut the chamfers but don't touch the crown guard so it's obvious.

All of these watches were originally hand finished so they all look slightly different. The thickness of the chamfers also changed over the years, compare the chamfers of a 1675 with those of a 16750. The crown guards were also different.

Unpolished 1675:

16750, thinner chamfer. And look at the line on the crown guard:

wsfarrell · May 28, 2018

djmusicman
https://www.chrono24.fr/rolex/1978-gmt-master-1675--id8385101.htm

Here's a new listing on Chrono24 Very clean chamfers on this one.

A few tips (in general, not talking about the Chrono24 watch specifically) Look at how close the lug holes are to the chamfer, too close and you can tell that the case has been recut. Look at the clasp, it seems a bit odd to me when I see a pristine case but a clearly polished crown on the clasp. The crown guard is the hardest part for a refinisher to get right, some recut the chamfers but don't touch the crown guard so it's obvious.

All of these watches were originally hand finished so they all look slightly different. The thickness of the chamfers also changed over the years, compare the chamfers of a 1675 with those of a 16750. The crown guards were also different.

Unpolished 1675:

16750, thinner chamfer. And look at the line on the crown guard:

I see crown guards like that last photo in about 1% of 1675's I look at. Maybe.

watchknut · May 28, 2018

Always look for a sharp line on top of the crown guards, and the chamfer goes all the way around the top of the guards.

chows99 · May 29, 2018

This is a 5 star thread for newbies like me! I am going to read through all the posts thoroughly! Thanks to all the members for sharing your knowledge!

rcs914 · May 29, 2018

So I just read this whole thing because as much as I've never really considered buying a Rolex, the GMT w/Pepsi sings to me in a way that I know it's an itch that wants to be scratched, but due to cost and familial obligations never will be, unless I happen to be very lucky.

What I find striking though is the similarities in this market and with an article I read this morning with regards to DeBeers. They've decided to completely undercut the synthetic diamond market, and start producing and selling synthetic diamonds at essentially (expensive) costume jewelry prices. Somehow they think that the allure and mystique of a genuine mined diamond will still draw people to those, because synthetic diamonds aren't mined, and all look exactly the same - that is flawless and colorless. So they are going to sell 1/4ct for $200, 1/2ct for $400, and 1ct for $800. I'm curious how this will play out because I know plenty of people whom could not give less of a shit if their diamond was mined or if it came from a lab, my wife being chief among them.

At some point, due to the level of truly amazing re-creations (fakes), or restorations of these watches, I would think that downward pressure would be exerted on the market because if you can't tell if it's 100% genuine or has been re-created, why would you pay top dollar? If i were into conspiracy theories I'd almost think that Rolex is perfectly fine with the vintage market essentially being gutted and flooded with watches like this since it might push more people towards purchasing new so they can be assured of it being genuine. What's the over/under on Rolex going the same route as Omega and producing "vintage inspired" pieces at some point?

bazamu · May 29, 2018

It's actually funny to see this thread, as it's near and dear to my heart as well. I am very well versed in some brands, but I'm also smart enough to know what I don't know, and vintage Rolex has always scared me away from diving too deep. I wanted a GMT for a long time before I got it, and ended up taking this one in a trade from a collector (@CajunTiger, if he's still hanging around here) who I knew well from years of interactions. When I sat down to write about it on my site, I got to the "Fine Print" section where I typically talk about the condition of the watch and found that when my word vomit was done, I'd gone on a rant about re-cut cases and re-done dials. Not shilling the post, but you can read that part here: http://www.bazamu.com/rolex-gmt-master-ref-1675-gilt/

Cliff Notes version for this post though - THIS is how bevels should look if it's a piece that's been used / has an aged and worn bezel like the one here. If the lines were nearly perfect with only the smallest of superficial scuffs, my antenna would be way up since the bezel tells a different story (see second picture).

Also, re: gilt dials - my good friend @t_swiss_t spent a lot of time researching hallmarks of a re-done lacquer job and it can be scary. This one is in great shape overall but has a couple small marks under / around the hand stack, which again, I'd expect to see. As a newbie, this is the condition that I'd be searching for. Overall, a dealer could still artificially age a watch to look somewhat similar to this, but once you've had enough reps / seen enough vintage watches, you should start to get a good feel for an honest, (likely) unpolished watch versus one with a lot of cosmetic work and a bogus backstory.

jason10mm · May 29, 2018

I find it interesting that (online at least) there is a high demand for vintage watches that look like they've spend decades on some crusty old sailors wrist (maybe it's the fantasy that it was YOUR wrist?), or at least some perfected image about what it SHOULD look like. What separates 'natural' pumpkin lume from colored? Or an artificially browned dial from a 'tropical' one?

I saw a 1970 5512 for sale with a modern dial (had applied markers with white gold surrounds) and hands so it looked almost like a new watch. Selling for about what a 5 digit would sell for. It is a legit birth year watch for someone, so why the 2-3x premium for an original dial with all those ageing defects? I can see the preference for a matte dial with painted markers versus applied, but I'll never understand ghost bezels, flaking 'spiderweb' dials, or the rest. Seems like an odd form of internet spread psychosis to me 😜 That GMT right above just seems like a worn out old watch. I could understand if it got that way on YOUR wrist, but why buy it in that condition (and pay such a premium for the pleasure)?

shishy · May 29, 2018

I know this was about GMTs, but I wanted to chime and say I've also personally experienced this with Heuer Bunds.

I cannot believe the number of perfect patina desk drawer Bunds that were also supposedly military issued coming out from some sellers; I personally had an experience with one who had a friend at the Sinn factory and was re dialing/reluming pieces.

In some time as people decide to sell their Bunds, I would not be surprised if there is a flood of these misrepresented/"manufactured" pieces coming out.

If it's too good to be true...

bazamu · May 29, 2018

J jason10mm
Seems like an odd form of internet spread psychosis to me 😜 That GMT right above just seems like a worn out old watch. I could understand if it got that way on YOUR wrist, but why buy it in that condition (and pay such a premium for the pleasure)?

Your post reads like an attempt to troll. If you think that GMT looks like a worn out old watch, then vintage isn't for you. Leave them to us.

Jones in LA · May 29, 2018

With so much fakery going on there's something to be said for plain old OEM service replacement parts. If you know that's what you're getting, you pay for what you're getting. I'd always wanted a Submariner with three specific characteristics: no date, two lines of text, and an acrylic crystal. I would have never guessed I'd end up with a 5513/cal.1530 made in 1964, given where prices are for this particular reference and vintage. But I found one that the seller said had a polished case (not overly so, in my opinion) and replacement bezel insert, pip, hands, and dial. I paid a fair price for what I got, which is an attractive watch that's a lot of fun to wear.

It just came home from the spa a few days ago. This is an after-spa shot.

ulackfocus · May 29, 2018

Lonestar
<walking on eggs...>

FYI, the phrase is "walking on eggshells". 😉

ulackfocus · May 29, 2018

ATWG
Here is my '68 Speedmaster, purchased from original owner whose father purchased it for him back in '69 as he was going to flight school to enlist in the Air Force and fly off to Vietnam. The story is about a 18 year old young man, wanting to serve his country.

This is an unaltered watch, so where is the patina? The watch sat in a drawer for 40 some odd years. Yea, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it's not always about what hue of orange is on that dial, it's about it's purpose and the story it has to tell. Unfortunately, this hobby has become more of a "show and tell" side show lately where everyone is trying to one-up the other by the extravagance of the colors.

Well, naturally we need a post about a Speedmaster in a thread asking about how to spot Rolex issues. 🙄 🤦

ATWG · May 29, 2018

U ulackfocus
Well, naturally we need a post about a Speedmaster in a thread asking about how to spot Rolex issues. 🙄 🤦

Wait, isn't this the Speedmaster Forum....I can't be too far off base, am I?

ulackfocus · May 29, 2018

ATWG
Wait, isn't this the Speedmaster Forum....I can't be too far off base, am I?

No worries. I've figured out that I'll play the game by the rules of the brainwashed - I'll just post gold dress watches in every Speedmaster thread. That should bring some balance.

morningtundra · May 29, 2018

The wabi-sabi aesthetic is a legitimate art form and beautifully poignant in a craftsman built device designed to mark the passing of time... That’s why some of us love these crusty, damaged old watches and will pay a premium for them. It’s about the feelings they stir in the beholder....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi

jason10mm · May 29, 2018

ChicagoFrog
Your post reads like an attempt to troll. If you think that GMT looks like a worn out old watch, then vintage isn't for you. Leave them to us.

Come on, just try to divorce yourself from Rolex and what vintage marketers have done to your perceptions. Would you pay 2X NEW for any other watch that was in that condition? I agree that there is a certain "rough appeal" to those old watches, but if YOU, or at least a relative, buddy, or celebrity (I guess) didn't get it to that point why would you want to buy it, for again, a 100% mark-up of NEW and what, 10X what it cost a few decades ago? I can see this for mint condition examples, but not worn, scratched, and degraded examples. So yeah, ya'll can have it because I gotta think that in a few years folks are gonna have a real rough time when their watches become unusable and nothing can be done to them without losing thousands and thousands of imaginary value.

chows99 · May 29, 2018

Our appreciation is not breed from vintage marketers. We pay more for certain vintage features such as fuschia bezels, ghost bezel because it appeal to us aesthetically.

And vintage watches are more robust than you thought. It could be still there ticking long past our time. So if you still think vintage is fragile, u may consider modern Rolex like Batman instead.

JACK G · May 30, 2018

A very interesting thread and very topical for me.

I am currently searching for an unpolished 16750 and am using this pic as a ref for the condition I would like............

As I already have a 16750 (it has been polished and I want unpolished) I have explored a replacement middle case as an option. Rolex will only supply one as part of a service so total cost comes out at around £3000. In addition the Rolex replacement cases are not quite the same as the originals having a very small bevel and replacement case are also frowned upon by many as the original serial number is lost.

I have also considered having my own case micro welded and refinished but cannot find anyone in the UK willing to take this on.

As I have no intention of selling the watch if I had this work carried out passing it off as original would not be an issue and if I did sell I would fully disclose this and supply the invoice for the work.

I do appreciate that at some point in the future the details of a case restoration may be 'lost'.

djmusicman · May 30, 2018

@JACK G Try to upload a photo of your watch. A service case would be a bad move, you pay a fortune and lose 50% of the value of your watch. For me there are two options, sell your watch and look for a better one or get your case fixed.

Rocco Manfredi @ http://www.watchworks.co.uk/ in Bristol does some amazing case work.

He turned this:

By doing this:

rolex laser repair rocco uk during omegary.jpg

Into this:

JACK G · May 30, 2018

Thanks @djmusicman.

I agree regarding a service case and have already discounted that option.

Although I would prefer to get my case fixed I have come to a dead end on this option.

I am currently looking for another 16750 but will not sell mine until I find one.

That's great work by Rocco but a localised repair is very different to a complete case job and I have had a long discussion with Rocco who declined the job. One of the reasons being that although he could recut the bevels the lugs would end up thinner than they are now.

Pics..............

<walking on eggshells...> - recognizing cosmetically enhanced 1675's?

djmusicman

wsfarrell

watchknut

chows99

rcs914

bazamu

jason10mm

shishy

bazamu

Jones in LA

ulackfocus

ulackfocus

ATWG

ulackfocus

morningtundra

jason10mm

chows99

JACK G

djmusicman

JACK G

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