<walking on eggshells...> - recognizing cosmetically enhanced 1675's?

Fost · May 28, 2018

Now ... if the relumed job is perfect , if the Geiger is ok , if the UV test is ok ... if the watch looks awesome .. yes maybe it is not original ... but if nobody in th world is able to firmely says it is not original ... what is the issue ? The only problem for restoration is to disclose as original when it is not .. but if nobody can tell it is not ... there is no answer ... so you can have suspicion and decide to not buy this beautiful watch ... just because it is too good to be true ... but maybe it was original and you just missed a beauty ... which is not a big deal btw ..

sevenhelmet · May 28, 2018

Fost
Now ... if the relumed job is perfect , if the Geiger is ok , if the UV test is ok ... if the watch looks awesome .. yes maybe it is not original ... but if nobody in th world is able to firmely says it is not original ... what is the issue ? The only problem for restoration is to disclose as original when it is not .. but if nobody can tell it is not ... there is no answer ... so you can have suspicion and decide to not buy this beautiful watch ... just because it is too good to be true ... but maybe it was original and you just missed a beauty ... which is not a big deal btw ..

I don't think it's for one person to say what should be a "big deal" to another, particularly in something as nuanced as watch collecting. For many collectors, originality is paramount. The problem is also that it is dishonest on the part of the seller, and can flood the market and affect valuation. In addition, a lot of guys enjoy the story behind the watch as much as the watch itself (like the Speedmaster '68 on page 1). Having a "vintage" watch in "mint" condition with no story begs the question- where did it come from?

However. If the watch is priced fairly, really appeals to the buyer, and originality isn't a concern (or it's not easily distinguishable from original), then that's really up to the buyer. Caveat emptor.

Lonestar · May 28, 2018

All,

thanks so much for sharing all this insight. I totally understand there are some great, untouched watches out there. As we all seem to agree, there cannot be that many, though... that they would all pop up these days is very unlikely. This is what triggered my question as I've been monitoring the forums for a while and I'm more nervous at every new "FS: Stunning 1675" thread.

@watchknut 's facts above are scary, because they show there is a business that feeds the market, that is known of by the cognoscienti. I am very grateful he is sharing this so openly. I had heard about some of the various techniques he mentions, too, but they kind of looked like Unicorn-ish fantasies to my naive self. And the fact that they would be so "easily" available, I wouldn't have suspected for sure. And there are even more it seems.... And if one respectable collector knows about it, this means many not-so-respectable collecto-dealers could very well do, too 🙁

Darlinboy
do your research

This is my very issue. What the above says, is that the newest restoration techniques can trump anyone but the most hardcore-top-1% collector - and possibly even them. Then If trit' and radium are used to refinish dials and hands, if cases are laser-welded to rebuild lugs and chamfers, then artificially aged to not look "too" new, if serials are re-engraved, how on earth am I supposed to walk out of this unscathed, really?

Interestingly, I was talking to a trustworthy dealer (there are some!) recently, and he said "I don't do Rolexes - too risky, too many touched-up watches because of the money involved. I cannot take the gamble to ruin my business". This guy is a well-respected pro...

Fost
Now ... if the relumed job is perfect , if the Geiger is ok , if the UV test is ok ... if the watch looks awesome .. yes maybe it is not original ... but if nobody in th world is able to firmely says it is not original ... what is the issue ? The only problem for restoration is to disclose as original when it is not .. but if nobody can tell it is not ... there is no answer ... so you can have suspicion and decide to not buy this beautiful watch ... just because it is too good to be true ... but maybe it was original and you just missed a beauty ... which is not a big deal btw ..

my very dilemma at the moment as my brain is going nuts about this all. However, the day when techniques are available to call out the differences though, this could become really, really ugly. A bit like anti-doping in pro cycling. We all agree what these pro cyclists are going through (think Tour de France) is not possibly human, but the technologies are not available in real-time to prove that their performance are chemically enhanced - so we all want to believe. But these technologies become available a few years after, at least while they still have bodily fluid samples available to test. And then, Lance Armstrong.

I don't want to end up with a 1675 that in 10 years from now I will know I was ripped off for.

Spacefruit · May 28, 2018

Even a speedmaster collector can be seduced by a GMT. I really have no clue what I am doing, so I found a seller I could trust. Not many of those

Polished? Could be....relumed ? definitely not
Bought before the rather incomprehensible price jump.

I wanted one, and the op struck a chord with me.

My research took me to dial restorers, case makers, and many many watch fakers in Asia. One sells gilt GMT fakes, and while My spider sense is good, but it only really kicked I once I knew it was a fake.

Now I’ve seen it, I would know it again. The problem is that there will be another maker anther method.

ATWG · May 28, 2018

Fost
Now ... if the relumed job is perfect , if the Geiger is ok , if the UV test is ok ... if the watch looks awesome .. yes maybe it is not original ... but if nobody in th world is able to firmely says it is not original ... what is the issue ? The only problem for restoration is to disclose as original when it is not .. but if nobody can tell it is not ... there is no answer ... so you can have suspicion and decide to not buy this beautiful watch ... just because it is too good to be true ... but maybe it was original and you just missed a beauty ... which is not a big deal btw ..

What's the issue you ask? The issue is paying as if it were unmolested! I have no issues in purchasing relumed watches, I have done so in the past and will do so in the future, just so long as it's known upfront.

cicindela · May 28, 2018

Lonestar
Hi guys,

I'm a Rolex virgin... but I've been eyeing 1675's for a while now, as I'm looking for a reasonably priced ( ie mildly into the 5-digit $ prices as opposed wildly into that range... heck, even the low range is not reasonable at all, when one thinks about it!), nicely patinated regular wearer (not beater).

As I'm slowly doing my homework and learning the ropes, I am confused again and again by some of the cosmetically perfect 1675's from the 70's that are hitting the specialized forums time after time.
Then again some questions are tough to ask, especially as a non-native speaker,

Paul

You mean you're not from Texas 😕 😀 ?

250scr · May 28, 2018

My friend tells me, he doesn't buy from dealers for a reason as he'll eventually find a 70 year old person that wants to sell his GMT he bought when he had enough money to afford one.

Lonestar · May 28, 2018

cicindela
You mean you're not from Texas 😕 😀 ?

😁 I am not - I've spent a couple of years as a young pro in the Silicon hills last millenium during the dot-com heyday, and they were possibly the best years in my life, though. Don't mess with Texas 😎 Get caught selling a fake GMT in the Lone Star State, and you're good for tar and feathers...

(nicest bunch of folks I've ever spent time with... really. Best, friendliest people ever. I miss you guys!)

Fost · May 28, 2018

sevenhelmet
I don't think it's for one person to say what should be a "big deal" to another, particularly in something as nuanced as watch collecting. For many collectors, originality is paramount. The problem is also that it is dishonest on the part of the seller, and can flood the market and affect valuation. In addition, a lot of guys enjoy the story behind the watch as much as the watch itself (like the Speedmaster '68 on page 1). Having a "vintage" watch in "mint" condition with no story begs the question- where did it come from?

However. If the watch is priced fairly, really appeals to the buyer, and originality isn't a concern (or it's not easily distinguishable from original), then that's really up to the buyer. Caveat emptor.

Hey ... the big deal was to miss a watch ... or not ...I don’t think missing a watch is a big deal personally

ATWG
What's the issue you ask? The issue is paying as if it were unmolested! I have no issues in purchasing relumed watches, I have done so in the past and will do so in the future, just so long as it's known upfront.

But if nobody can tell if it is unmolested or not ... my point if when nobody in the world can tell the thruth ... how can we decide if it is unmolested or completely redone .. how would you know that you have been ripped off ? Just questioning ...

Exemple : here is something very nice , UV ok , Geiger OK, inspection OK , case polished but very nicely ... come from ITalie ... so how can i know if original or completely redone ? Who can proof me it this redone or not ?

djmusicman · May 28, 2018

Italy is THE place to go if you want a case like @Fost 5513. The watchmaker I met showed me one like this that he had worked on, indistinguishable from NOS. I don't understand the big deal, if it's original then good, they finished it like this in the factory in the 70's. If it's refinished then the guy who did it really knew what he was doing and probably used the original Rolex lapping machine. The result is the same.

I don't see too many watches described as "NOS unworn" it's pretty rare to find them. I do have a 1990 Speedmaster that is unworn but these waches usually have some kind of story to them, mine is a full set with a full length bracelet, sometimes you just know what's true and whats not.

Nice Sub BTW!

ATWG · May 28, 2018

Again, with the advent of all the counterfeit mechanisms in play these days, it's extremely difficult to tell them apart which is why when I see a perfect example, my suspicions are aroused. Unless, I know for a fact it's history and origin of purchase, otherwise, all bets are off. I don't mind refinished/relumed examples, what I do mind is the the asking price and declaration.

Additionally, pictures don't tell the story, you have to handle the watch and be very experienced to look for clues. Most of us in this hobby rely on the one or two friends who have handled hundreds if not thousands of these watches over the years to serve as good sounding board. They're all around us, just have to be willing and open minded to take their advice.

It's amazing the amount of posts I see here where people solicit for advice on a 1675, then throw all caution to the wind and take the opposite view. Again, it's all about perception and the hunt for that perfect patina.....

abrod520 · May 28, 2018

Lonestar
This is my very issue. What the above says, is that the newest restoration techniques can trump anyone but the most hardcore-top-1% collector - and possibly even them. Then If trit' and radium are used to refinish dials and hands, if cases are laser-welded to rebuild lugs and chamfers, then artificially aged to not look "too" new, if serials are re-engraved, how on earth am I supposed to walk out of this unscathed, really?

I also kind of want a 1675, and I'm never going to buy one. I like them, but I don't like them enough to dedicate my entire life to being able to tell if it's original, restored, or completely fake

ATWG · May 28, 2018

BTW - there is one person on this thread who on numerous occasion has pulled me out of making a massive mistake.

abrod520
I also kind of want a 1675, and I'm never going to buy one. I like them, but I don't like them enough to dedicate my entire life to being able to tell if it's original, restored, or completely fake

I hear you can't go wrong with products out of Italy these days.

Fost · May 28, 2018

Personally I think this subject has no reson to be limited to Italy and Rolex ...

MaiLollo · May 28, 2018

Fost
Personally I think this subject has no reson to be limited to Italy and Rolex ...

I'm Italian, so I agree on the Italy part 😁
As far as Rolex is concerned though, it has no equal in the way it is faked / frankened / put together.
Maybe it's because it's always been a valuable brand and fakers / POS have more experience doing it ?

omegastar · May 28, 2018

I believe it’s all about the road and not the destination.
You can travel on country roads and eat home grown fruits that taste like heaven and meet people....
You can travel on the highway and buy fruits in an airconditionned supermarket that taste nothing.....
Imagine then that you post pics of you entering the car, nice landscapes and juicy fruits....nobody can tell the difference except you. There lies the choice.
If the goal of watch collecting is to post pictures and gather likes or live the real adventure.
I personally don’t see the difference between buying a perfect prepared watch from a dealer and buying a new one from the AD.
Just my two cents.
Mounir

Fost · May 28, 2018

MaiLollo
I'm Italian, so I agree on the Italy part 😁
As far as Rolex is concerned though, it has no equal in the way it is faked / frankened / put together.
Maybe it's because it's always been a valuable brand and fakers / POS have more experience doing it ?

Of course bro ... and now ... don’t you think that other brand will suffer from this ... especially when prices are rising up ... Speedmaster maybe ? 😁

watchknut · May 28, 2018

I hate it when people say they will never buy a vintage Rolex...that makes me sad. They made millions of these things, and great, honest watches are still out there.

I've probably bought sold 40 or 50 over the years, and cannot think of one that I had any doubts on. Main reason I can say that is because I bought from original owners, people that bought them used 10, 20, or 30 years ago, and pawn shops, Craigslist, etc...places where the sharks don't play.

If you know what to look for, it can be very rewarding, but if you haven't a clue and look to take the easy way of sourcing from a dealer, then beware.

omegastar · May 28, 2018

Well it would be fair to say that the first who started enhancing these watches are the Rolex service centers themselves. That is the main reason why it is very difficult to know what really happened and why so many parts are available everywhere. Try to find a credible prepared SM 300...

morningtundra · May 28, 2018

Fost
Personally I think this subject has no reson to be limited to Italy and Rolex ...

... or the 1675s. The 4 digit Red Daytona’s are another interesting nest of vipers.

<walking on eggshells...> - recognizing cosmetically enhanced 1675's?

Fost

sevenhelmet

Lonestar

Spacefruit

ATWG

cicindela

250scr

Lonestar

Fost

djmusicman

ATWG

abrod520

ATWG

Fost

MaiLollo

omegastar

Fost

watchknut

omegastar

morningtundra

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