Vaccinated roll-call

Dan S · Aug 11, 2021

josiahg52
I believe a business owner has a right to do business exactly how they want to. Any person shouldn't be allowed to force them to do otherwise. The day I rely on government regulations that establish the fundamental policies that make my customers happy, coming back, and recommending my business to their acquaintances is a day I would question if I should be remain in operation.

Archer
The thing is, this sort of thinking goes against any and all health and safety guidelines for businesses, both for employees and customers.

Also, I don't know what country @josiahg52 is operating in, but in many countries, business are required to treat customers equitably and respect their civil rights. If you throw a customer out of your store because of some religious garb they are wearing, for example, you may find that this doesn't align with your government's expectations. Government bodies also certify various professions to ensure competence.

Omegafanman · Aug 11, 2021

Archer
If a business decides to not allow entry on private property to people who are unvaccinated, then personally I have no issues with that. Business will often have a sign that says "No shirt, no shoes, no service" so if it can be done for lack of clothing, it can be done for lack of vaccination for a virus.

Plenty of other precedents out there, like mandatory vaccinations for students to attend school. IMO this really isn't any different.

I guess this is a country based issue. In the UK we don’t have regular armed police, we don’t have ID cards and we don’t have mandatory vaccinations for access to public services including schools. Basic ID cards were brought in during WW2 but this was repealed as soon as possible - On 21 February 1952, it no longer became necessary to carry an identity card. The National Registration Act of 1939 was repealed on 22 May 1952. I am not sure if we (UK) now face the biggest crisis in seventy years which jeopardises all our lives and in effect requires ID cards without a vote / act of parliament.... and with no end point. My sense is WW2 was a greater threat comparing past and current family experiences. We could pay a very heavy long term price for a perception of safety if we (UK) are not fully alert to the risks and benefits. This needs debate (in the UK) without fear mongering, name calling and black listing (in terms of the UK press / not behaviours on this forum). I also do not trust corporations to act in good faith. They just shut a local bank and pushed it all online.... due low footfall (we have been in a freaking lock down ;0).... bet their profits will go up and service will go down.... their share price certainly went up...

Omegafanman · Aug 11, 2021

ChrisN
You are being a bit harsh here thinking that people have not tried to understand the risks of what they are being asked to take and, if you're correct, I suspect it is just the people you are dealing with. If you work in a field where everyone is educated to at least a scientific degree level, then you would probably have reached a different opinion - almost certainly with regards to those you would work with.

If you're researching to see how taking the vaccine might impact your personal situation as it's not obvious from the general leaflets, then I understand that. Perhaps some existing medication may affect your response to the vaccine, as an example.

If people are researching and deciding a contrary opinion on vaccination to the UK Chief Medical Officers then it makes no sense at all as any knowledge you will have gained is just at a superficial level. None of the scientific aspects are easy to grasp and you can only really understand this properly if you study for many years (for example, I studied until 23 to get my M.Sc.) and then spend many years building experience in the field, plus have access to all the current data, test results etc.

In UK, I believe that 90% of adults have already opted to take the vaccine and that includes many people who genuinely understand this and have access to all the background data. Let's hope this level is sufficient to suppress the virus here.

Good luck, Chris

Thanks for the reply - based on current data do you see any age limit required or is it a priority to vaccinate all ages including the very young.

Larry S · Aug 11, 2021

Dan S
Also, I don't know what country @josiahg52 is operating in, but in many countries, business are required to treat customers equitably and respect their civil rights. If you throw a customer out of your store because of some religious garb they are wearing, for example, you may find that this doesn't align with your government's expectations. Government bodies also certify various professions to ensure competence.

Early on in this pandemic, my favorite wine shop was curbside only. Why? Some of their bigger customers were melting down over masks. They didn’t want the constant hassles. Fortunately they worked through it.

Doc Savage · Aug 11, 2021

pdxleaf
My buddy from the Army just got his J&J. Just called. He was on the fence, saying he was 50/50. He's a smart guy, was concerned about complications he heard about. He knew they were rare, but was distrustful.

I mean no disrespect, but he's not a smart guy. He's misinformed. And acting on misinformation is dangerous. I spent 9 years in the Army, and misinformation in the ranks has always been rampant. I'm glad he evenutally made the right decision.

pdxleaf
If anyone has the opportunity to get vaccinated and decides not to, good for you.

No, they can go F themselves. Anyone who chooses not to get vaccinated is part of the PROBLEM.

pdxleaf
Please don't go to the hospital and expose other people. Don't use up valuable hospital resources that could be helping people who want help. Please don't go to work. Be a man, and just stay home and suck it up. Good luck with that.

Anti maskers and anti vaxxers mostly overlap on a Venn diagram. Their ideologies are based on arrogance and entitlement. They are the WORST at following public health guidelines, in my experience, because they don't give a shit about other people. They make decisions and act based on purely selfish motives. They won't stay home. They won't suck it up.

Archer · Aug 11, 2021

Omegafanman
I guess this is a country based issue. In the UK we don’t have regular armed police, we don’t have ID cards and we don’t have mandatory vaccinations for access to public services including schools.

Well that's interesting that vaccines are not mandatory for school attendance. In checking this, I came across a story that the government was seriously considering implementing this back in 2019, due to falling vaccination rates. So it may be coming to a school near you.

Although it was a very long time ago now, I recall several "needle days" at school where we all lined up for booster shots.

Dan S · Aug 11, 2021

Larry S
Early on in this pandemic, my favorite wine shop was curbside only. Why? Some of their bigger customers were melting down over masks. They didn’t want the constant hassles. Fortunately they worked through it.

Businesses are definitely put in some tough positions trying to balance public safety requirements with what their customers want.

Archer · Aug 11, 2021

Larry S
Early on in this pandemic, my favorite wine shop was curbside only. Why? Some of their bigger customers were melting down over masks. They didn’t want the constant hassles. Fortunately they worked through it.

Many small business groups are calling for vaccine passports here, exactly because of this reason. Leaving it to small businesses to come up with policies that vary all over the place, and to police it without the backing of government, are suffering because of the abuse by irate customers.

Doc Savage · Aug 11, 2021

Tony C.
No, they are not "safe", as evidenced by many examples of clusters of vaccinated people becoming infected.

Your point about the viral loads is largely true, but again, in the real world, you can't accurately talk about safety without also taking behavior into account. And far too many who have been vaccinated have altered their behavior in unsafe ways.

You are spreading misinformation. You say you aren't arguing against the vaccine, but you clearly are. It's completely irresponsible. You are undermining public health by doing the same thing Fox, OAN, and even crazier media sources do by constantly "asking questions", diverting people's attention to side issues, and saying that not everyone needs to get vaccinated. That is the height of deadly misinformation. You are not a trusted source on pandemic pathology. Accept that fact. Learn from the people who are. That's what the rest of us are doing.

It's not a conspiracy. Every legitimate medical school, teaching hospital, and reputable medical group is recommending everyone without a medical limitation get vaccinated. You are not smarter than them. You don't have more virology experience than them. Stop pretending your opinion is more valid than theirs.

We ALREADY KNOW that behavior is a factor in spreading the disease. You aren't informing anyone of anything there. One of the things you fail to understand is that right now in North America and Western Europe (where the vaccine has already been distributed to any who want it), many of the unvaccinated are at least as bad, if not worse, than the vaccinated in their public flaunting of public health guidelines. I have seen it for months in my area. Although they have learned no longer to say it publicly, many still believe covid is a hoax or barely worse than the regular flu. 12 months of insidious conditioning from certain partisan media outlets won't disappear overnight. That makes them the biggest part of the problem.

The other fact you are ignoring is that hospitals are now overflowing with covid patients and are turning away people with other life-threatening problems. The unvaccinated are the vast, vast majority of the covid patients in hospitals in the US and Canada right now. There is a straight line from not getting vaccinated to overflowing hospitals forced to shut down practically all other health care for non covid cases.

Young, healthy people are suffering greatly from the Delta & Delta+ variants like never before. Children are contracting it and dying. This isn't the original covid from last year. Your suggestion had validity back then, but no longer. The idea that lacking co-morbidities like obesity and old age are a defense against getting vaccinated no longer apply. Today, everyone that can medically withstand vaccination should get it.

The Father · Aug 11, 2021

Doc Savage
Public health mandates are nothing new. Requiring vaccinations is not new. The only thing that is new here is people being misled by wealthy talking heads on TV or internet channels who are making $ off of misinforming their viewers.

Of course this has veered off topic. The use of newly found government power is not isolated to vaccine usage.
Government has been bequeathed powers for the past two years that have not been used previously.
Some think it is just fine and some some believe it is dangerous.

The Father · Aug 11, 2021

Omegafanman
I guess this is a country based issue. In the UK we don’t have regular armed police, we don’t have ID cards and we don’t have mandatory vaccinations for access to public services including schools. Basic ID cards were brought in during WW2 but this was repealed as soon as possible - On 21 February 1952, it no longer became necessary to carry an identity card. The National Registration Act of 1939 was repealed on 22 May 1952. I am not sure if we (UK) now face the biggest crisis in seventy years which jeopardises all our lives and in effect requires ID cards without a vote / act of parliament.... and with no end point. My sense is WW2 was a greater threat comparing past and current family experiences. We could pay a very heavy long term price for a perception of safety if we (UK) are not fully alert to the risks and benefits. This needs debate (in the UK) without fear mongering, name calling and black listing (in terms of the UK press / not behaviours on this forum). I also do not trust corporations to act in good faith. They just shut a local bank and pushed it all online.... due low footfall (we have been in a freaking lock down ;0).... bet their profits will go up and service will go down.... their share price certainly went up...

Correctamundo on the online of services. Hell of of a lot cheaper when comes to overhead.

My cardiologist, bless her heart, is going exclusively to the Teledoc/iphone/ipad whatever rather than in person appts.

Personally I think a Doc needs eyeballs on a patient rather than a computer screen.

Pianotuna · Aug 11, 2021

Regarding government regulation of business it is an unfortunate necessity. This is how minimum standards of hygiene in medical establishments, brothels and tattoo parlours et al come into play. This is how some people/businesses are pulled into line. Corporate morality, especially in the USA I’m sorry to say (see: Ford, Pinto; oil industry, leaded petrol; the tobacco industry, everything; as examples) is not be be relied on. Customer intelligence, knowledge and understanding is not High! as is clearly evidenced by current circumstances. I’m a business owner, and the stupid sh*t people say to me about MY area of expertise is sometimes astounding.
Are all governments the same? Clearly not. Brazil, New Zealand and China/Belarus as examples offer three distinct points on the chart when it comes to magnanimity towards its citizens. Fortunately in many western democracies there are at least informed and well intentioned health bureaucracies that will act (in what they perceive) to be the best outcome for their people despite the incompetence of the People’s’ elected representatives.

Tony C. · Aug 11, 2021

Doc Savage
You are undermining public health by doing the same thing Fox, OAN, and even crazier media sources do by constantly "asking questions", diverting people's attention to side issues, and saying that not everyone needs to get vaccinated

I'm undermining public health by stating facts? That's interesting.

Doc Savage
It's not a conspiracy. Every legitimate medical school, teaching hospital, and reputable medical group is recommending everyone without a medical limitation get vaccinated. You are not smarter than them. You don't have more virology experience than them. Stop pretending your opinion is more valid than theirs.

This is both wildly over-the-top, and, frankly, arguable. There is not 100% agreement on the issue. There are doctors and virologists who are not gung-ho to recommend vaccinations for everyone, and for reasons that are fully grounded in science. You are free to make your case, and support it with the experts of your choice, and I'll do the same for myself.

Oh, and please dispense with the straw men (i.e. "Stop pretending your opinion is more valid than theirs").

Doc Savage
many of the unvaccinated are at least as bad, if not worse, than the vaccinated in their public flaunting of public health guidelines.

I never suggested that there wasn't unsafe behavior in that group. What I pointed out was that many of those who have been vaccinated have assumed a level of safety that doesn't exist, and have (largely unwittingly) put many others at risk, as a result. That is a fact that should be broadcast from rooftops, as it can only help people, contrary to your implications.

Doc Savage
We ALREADY KNOW that behavior is a factor in spreading the disease.

You say that as if most of those who have been vaccinated understand what that means. But many obviously don't.

Doc Savage
The unvaccinated are the vast, vast majority of the covid patients in hospitals in the US and Canada right now.

There is evidence to the contrary (i.e. suggesting that your assertion is an exaggeration), but there's no reason to argue about that, as I have repeatedly agreed that the vaccines lower the likelihood of severe symptoms, hospitalization, and death. I also agree that outside of the category of those most vulnerable, potential hospital overcrowding is the most compelling reason to get vaccinated.

tyrantlizardrex · Aug 11, 2021

Just checking back in - nearly a month since my second dose of Moderna, and I have still not turned into the hulk, grown gills, or acquired the ability to turn lead into gold.

Very disappointed.

Larry S · Aug 11, 2021

@

tyrantlizardrex
Just checking back in - nearly a month since my second dose of Moderna, and I have still not turned into the hulk, grown gills, or acquired the ability to turn lead into gold.

Very disappointed.

No desire to consume human flesh, or worship satan?

tyrantlizardrex · Aug 11, 2021

Larry S
@

No desire to consume human flesh, or worship satan?

Before I read the bickering over the last 6 pages?

Not really, no.

Now?

*Consults cup board of BBQ sauces*

😁

mrbreen · Aug 11, 2021

By and large this is an interesting and sometimes humorous discussion, but one thing is almost certainly true: No one here is undermining public health, because if you’ve come to this forum to help you make a decision on vaccination, then god help us all 😀

Archer · Aug 11, 2021

Larry S
Getting vaccinated IS taking care of yourself and others. You don’t need to clog up the medical system,

This is the issue for me. When hospitals are limiting services to others because of people who won’t get vaccinated, then it becomes everyone’s problem.

The Father · Aug 11, 2021

I am astounded by thought of comply or else from all the learned contributors here.

STANDY · Aug 11, 2021

Archer
Well that's interesting that vaccines are not mandatory for school attendance. In checking this, I came across a story that the government was seriously considering implementing this back in 2019, due to falling vaccination rates. So it may be coming to a school near you.

Although it was a very long time ago now, I recall several "needle days" at school where we all lined up for booster shots.

Australia has a no government childcare payments if not vaccinated. Many childcare places won’t accept unvaccinated children
( so they all end up in some mung bean hippie childcare centre together playing in mud as the media portrays which is always a laugh )

Having the Australian disaster relief team based not far from me and seeing them come back from the Samoa Measles outbreak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Samoa_measles_outbreak

edit: because I spelt Samoa wrong 🤦

Vaccinated roll-call

Dan S

Omegafanman

Omegafanman

Larry S

Doc Savage

Archer

Dan S

Archer

Doc Savage

The Father

The Father

Pianotuna

Tony C.

tyrantlizardrex

Larry S

tyrantlizardrex

mrbreen

Archer

The Father

STANDY

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