Vaccinated roll-call

Larry S · Aug 10, 2021

I’m sorry, my “civility” batteries are very marginal right now. Statistically most of the hospitalization and death is amongst unvaccinated people. Having gone to great lengths to get my vaccines last Feb/March, the fact that I talk to parents fearful for their children and see signs like this again just irritates the hell out of me. We are back to masking out of respect for the folks who have to deal with the public.

Your personal freedom applies if you need a tetanus shot after stepping on a nail. You wont spread it. you are welcome to your consequences.

It does not apply here. Your sense of personal freedom, not to mask, not to get vaccinated ends when you are a threat to public safety. At least wear a dammed mask.

ChiefMark · Aug 10, 2021

blufinz52
The unvaccinated are keeping this pandemic going. Vaccines eradicated smallpox and has kept numerous diseases under control such as polio. I just don’t get how anyone won’t get vaccinated against this coronavirus.

I'm sorry, that's simply not true. This virus, unlike polio, rapidly evolves. This virus, according to the CDC, can still be contracted and spread by vaccinated people. I'm not 100% sure they are correct, but we're supposed to trust the science, right? So taking them at their word, and knowing several (not 1 or 2, but a dozen) people locally who I knew to be fully vaccinated but contracted MILD cases of COVID anyway has me fairly convinced that you can at least contract the virus if vaccinated. If the CDC is also correct about the viral load in vaccinated people, it would indicate that the vaccine prevents hospitalization and death; it does not eradicate the virus.

There are viruses we have mostly eliminated and viruses that continue to flourish no matter what we have done. The flu, the common cold, and HIV among them. It's also a fallacy that polio has been eliminated. It's been reduced to the point where it's extremely rare, but it does exist - there were roughly 1,000 cases of polio in 2020. (https://www.who.int/news/item/23-06-2020-statement-of-the-25th-polio-ihr-emergency-committee)

Neither vaccinated nor unvaccinated people are keeping this pandemic going - it's endemic and not going away. The only people who are forcing our kids to wear masks (they're more likely to die from drowning, falls, car accidents, and lightening strikes than COVID), closing businesses, making us wear masks... they are inflicting undo hardship and economic harm for reasons that are beyond me. Polio and smallpox and the 1918 influenza had fatality rates orders of magnitude higher than COVID-19. If this disease had a fatality rate anywhere near the polio rate of 15-30% in adolescents; everyone would be on board with vaccinations for all...

But... it's not. In fact, the mortality rate for people 0 - 24 from COVID without co-morbidity is... zero. Literally all of the <500 children who have died in the US from COVID 19 had co-morbidities that were the primary modality of death. They also had COVID. Less than 500 in a country with over 300 million people is an anecdote, not a data point we use to deprive our children of a normal childhood and the ability to read other's faces & see smiles.

mrbreen · Aug 10, 2021

And Tony: I know spend a lot of time reading and thinking about a broad number of things, and I'm definitely not dismissing your thoughts as post hoc. The smart, thoughtful, watch collecting ex-pat is kind of an outlier in almost all things 😉

but...

I stand by my previous statement more generally. The study I linked above is pretty compelling in showing how a routine vaccine rollout became entrenched in the culture war and I think many of those circumstances are applicable today. In the absence of expertise people often rely on heuristics and group dynamics (read: belonging) to help them make cost/benefit calculations. This is true for everyone, regardless of political persuasion. I don't think it's a leap to see the parallels between masking sentiments and vaccine sentiments, and how that relates to how one perceives themselves in their group. And while I cannot find any fault with the statement: "To arrive at the conclusion that there are unknown medium and long term risks involved in using mRNA vaccines is simple, unassailable logic, based on facts.", a similar sentiment is being used by right wing media with considerably less thoughtfulness.

mrbreen · Aug 10, 2021

And I'll echo the sentiments of Mark above. I bring these points up because it seems that vaccine hesitancy to the extent that it currently exists, and the difficulties of distributing vaccines worldwide, means this thing isn't going away by vaccine or otherwise. My hope is that it can be relegated to threat levels similar to those seen in the seasonal flu. That seems like an acceptable level of risk to me, and I hope that comes soon to the places where it hasn't yet.

Tony C. · Aug 10, 2021

mrbreen
I stand by my previous statement more generally. The study I linked above is pretty compelling in showing how a routine vaccine rollout became entrenched in the culture war and I think many of those circumstances are applicable today. In the absence of expertise people often rely on heuristics and group dynamics (read: belonging) to help them make cost/benefit calculations. This is true for everyone, regardless of political persuasion. I don't think it's a leap to see the parallels between masking sentiments and vaccine sentiments, and how that relates to how one perceives themselves in their group. And while I cannot find any fault with the statement: "To arrive at the conclusion that there are unknown medium and long term risks involved in using mRNA vaccines is simple, unassailable logic, based on facts.", a similar sentiment is being used by right wing media with considerably less thoughtfulness.

Thanks. The topic that you raise is hellishly complicated. Much of what you refer to has been catalyzed by many years of increasing and understandable public distrust of both Government, and the MSM, and is hardly confined to the "right wing media". FOX may have been the first to become so obvious, but now you can count the NYT, NPR, etc. as largely being in the same, damning boat.

This isn't really the right forum on which to parse it out in any detail, but I'd be happy to speak to you about it offline sometime, if you like.

mrbreen · Aug 10, 2021

Tony C.
Thanks. The topic that you raise is hellishly complicated. Much of what you refer to has been catalyzed by many years of increasing and understandable public distrust of both Government, and the MSM, and is hardly confined to the "right wing media". FOX may have been the first to become so obvious, but now you can count the NYT, NPR, etc. as largely being in the same, damning boat.

This isn't really the right forum on which to parse it out in any detail, but I'd be happy to speak to you about it offline sometime, if you like.

We may disagree on the extent, but I share this sentiment as well

Omegafanman · Aug 10, 2021

Personal freedom was hard fought for in some of our countries. New technologies are impacting that in ways we have not fully considered yet. I see references here to behaviours for the greater good but who defines that?
Philosophically we can say if someone fires a gun, drink drives, fails to call an ambulance, starts a fire etc - there is cause and effect with any damage caused, and we can punish them for a crime. We now appear to face wider existential risks which given the population growth may require group compliance. If one individual leaves a light on, eats red meat, is not vaccinated for all possible diseases, has too many children, eats an unhealthy diet, fails to exercise, drinks, takes drugs, uses too much fossil fuel, holds outdated scientific or religious views, owns pets etc etc... as an individual it is hard to directly attribute the harm they may or may not do to society or even judge what is right or wrong actions. Individually their actions will make little or no difference to the whole. Education and culture should grow and guide behaviours and evolve overtime in a natural way. Allowing the state / corporations to mandate and enforce all behaviours is a dangerous path - especially when it is reactive and based on evolving data. A further complication in the media savvy world is that many parties will manipulate situations to their full commercial / political advantage. If we are not careful we may win a battle and save some lives ... but lose the war long term.
We are reaching a point where culture could be locked and it could all get rather dull and constrictive with proper debate impossible. Basically I am not a fan of health passports / the current direction of travel, although I do understand why blunt / simple communication is used to drive up the vaccine uptake.

pdxleaf · Aug 10, 2021

Archer
Just as an aside, I have to say I find it very jarring to see these commercials on American TV, as they are not allowed here. Not sure about other parts of the world, but you can always tell when you have a US station on, because of these adverts on all the time.

There's always a profit motive in these things, and personally I have a difficult time with these companies in some respects, but they also make the drugs that keep me alive and allow me to have the life I have right now. I don't see them as "all good" or "all bad"...

As an aside from the general topic, Pharma gets tax incentives for advertising, including credits, which reduce tax bills one for one. (I think New Zealand also allows advertising, not sure about their taxes. There are some recent changes to the laws and i am not up on the details.)

The stated objective is that tax breaks encourage R&D. Arguable. It certainly could encourage R&d, but it could just be they have better lobbyists.

As good as the tests are that are based on statistical trials, real use by the public gives more results, which is the main goal of advertising. It costs money to run trials on hundreds or thousands of people. You can get free results on thosands of people if they willingly use your new drug.

Rule of thumb, if you see it advertised on TV, try an alternative.

Archer · Aug 10, 2021

Tony C.
I thought that it would be obvious that I was referring to actual use in a broad population.

Well, "never" is a very specific term, and you are typically very specific with your arguments. You implore people to read your posts carefully, and I did that.

Archer · Aug 10, 2021

pdxleaf
Rule of thumb, if you see it advertised on TV, try an alternative.

Well, I actually listen to my doctor, not TV commercials. And yes, one of the drugs I use regularly is heavily advertised on TV, but I can assure you that doesn't factor into my decisions one way or another.

STANDY · Aug 10, 2021

blufinz52
The unvaccinated are keeping this pandemic going. Vaccines eradicated smallpox and has kept numerous diseases under control such as polio.I just don’t get how anyone won’t get vaccinated against this coronavirus.

Didn’t get how everyone still flew around the world / countries ignoring all Quarantine principles for the first several months.
Seems this has been forgotten as the spread went on.

pdxleaf · Aug 10, 2021

STANDY
...

Seems this has been forgotten as the spread went on.

Every Wednesday evening in the park next to our house.
Just getting started...

If there's an evil cabal or mastermind trying to control us they are doing a pretty lousy job. Wear a mask during the day at the office and okay to go to a rave at night.

We live in ironic times...

Omegafanman · Aug 11, 2021

According to the WHO at least 30% of the Afghan population have been exposed to Covid 19, They have rudimentary health care at best, no vaccine and (based on WHO reports) are not observing social distancing or hygiene rules (they also have a water shortage). Around 15 million people are now under Taliban control. A slight thread drift but (and not that I would wish this pandemic on anyone) I do find it frustrating and confusing that rather than force them to slow down or entertain a meaningful ceasefire, they are actually gaining ground and rejecting peace deals in the midst of this global epidemic. It now looks like they will take back the country creating ‘’ideal conditions for international terrorism and violent extremism’’ according to the UK chief of Staff. Another humanitarian disaster brewing.
After 20 years, with hundreds of thousands of dead and so many brave soldiers killed and injured + a $trillion dollars spent($25 billion of which at least was lost to fraud and criminality) we seem to be back at square one. Despite Covid 19 and airstrikes the Taliban are maintaining an effective active fighting force of approaching one hundred thousand. I hope our new war on Covid and its variants has a better outcome than the Afghan war for all our sakes.

Tony C. · Aug 11, 2021

Archer
Well, "never" is a very specific term, and you are typically very specific with your arguments. You implore people to read your posts carefully, and I did that.

Sorry about the misunderstanding, but I actually thought that it would have been obvious to everyone that there must have been trials, even if only on the COVID vaccines themselves. I should have been more clear.

In any case, I do hope that the mRNA vaccines turn out to be safe in the long term, but this is a vast experiment, undertaken without any clear answers to related questions.

Omegafanman · Aug 11, 2021

Tony C.
Sorry about the misunderstanding, but I actually thought that it would have been obvious to everyone that there must have been trials, even if only on the COVID vaccines themselves. I should have been more clear.

In any case, I do hope that the mRNA vaccines turn out to be safe in the long term, but this is a vast experiment, undertaken without any clear answers to related questions.

Based on most people I talk to they have no clue what the Vaccine is / have no understanding about mRNA or that is it anything new compared to previous vaccines - so I dont think we can say there has truly been informed consent. Then again the powers that be will be afraid that the majority of the population are unable to make sensible jugements and risk assesments from facts and take personal responsability....so less information avoids confusing them... which is a risk thanks to the powers that be led education systems :0)

Omegafanman · Aug 11, 2021

Omegafanman
Based on most people I talk to they have no clue what the Vaccine is / have not understanding about mRNA or that is it anything new compared ot previoud vaccines - so I dont think we can say there has been informed consent. Then again the powers that be will be afraid that the majority of the population are unable to make sensible jugements and risk assesments from facts and take personal responsability....so less information avoids confusing them... which is a risk thanks to the pwoers that be led education systems :0)

A side angle to this is extreme fear. I spoke to a young kindergarten teacher at the weekend who had recovered from Covid... her worse and ongoing symptom is panic attacks - she was terrifed she had killed her familly and would die herself (they all recovered fine) She also has five year olds in the class who have to wear mittens as they have been scubbing their hands raw... and some have lost their toilet training, as for a while the school rule was the whole class had to visit the toilet at set times to avoid cross contamination - so they wet the seats... the mental health issues will be a major side effect I fear.

Tony C. · Aug 11, 2021

Omegafanman
Based on most people I talk to they have no clue what the Vaccine is / have no understanding about mRNA or that is it anything new compared to previous vaccines - so I dont think we can say there has been informed consent. Then again the powers that be will be afraid that the majority of the population are unable to make sensible jugements and risk assesments from facts and take personal responsability....so less information avoids confusing them... which is a risk thanks to the powers that be led education systems :0)

Yes, it's a huge can of worms, unfortunately. It's easy to understand how difficult it is for governments to make decisions, given the circumstances, but the fact that there is so little confidence in what they say, along with the often confusing guidance given by health authorities, makes it all quite complicated. And that's before factoring in the nexus of Big Pharma and the government(s)...

sxl2004 · Aug 11, 2021

In regard to long term side effects, long term COVID etc vs vaccine long term side effects, I know where my bet is going.

The Father · Aug 11, 2021

sxl2004
In regard to long term side effects, long term COVID etc vs vaccine long term side effects, I know where my bet is going.

This is just the devil advocate perspective. I have received the vaccine.

Chances are probably 97.5%(just my number nothing scientific) or more there will be no long term side effects from the vaccine.

But if there is, will we say "my God what have we done, we vaccinated several billion humans"

Human are know for colossal mistakes.

Pianotuna · Aug 11, 2021

Easily the most civil discourse on whether to vaccinate or not in the entire western world!
Couple of points. Are their long term side effects of the vaccines? Possibly. Maybe even probably.
Are there long term effects of Covid infection? It appears definitely so, especially the so called ‘long Covid’ according to sufferers. On that basis, I’ll take my chances with the vaccine.
We have now seen that the body’s natural immune system is in itself not enough to protect you, with cases just this past week in the UK, Australia and the USA of fit, healthy people with no underlying medical issues dying, some within days of diagnosis.
However it seems obvious to me that one of the underlying objectives of a thorough vaccination program is the reduction in stress on the medical infrastructure. A few days ago I watched a press conference with the chief doctor at Our Lady of the Lake hospital in Louisiana, apparently the largest hospital facility in the State. Fully 25% of their in-patients have Covid, whereas in normal circumstances the most they might expect to see admitted and suffering from any one disease is 7%. All the serious cases are unvaccinated. Most if not all that might die, are unvaccinated.
The hospital is maxed out! The strain on their resources both material and human is at breaking point. And this story is duplicated in many other US States, most alarmingly in those with the lowest rates of vaccination. So, while not a fan of Big Pharma, which has proven to have an entirely flexible morality historically speaking, I am in this instance a proponent of ‘getting a shot’.
One quick observation on vaccine passports, which some regard as an infringement on their rights. 50 years ago as a child I was fortunate to travel through the Sub-continent and Middle East with my parents. We were required to carry in our Passports yellow certificates proving we had received vaccinations for cholera and typhus and would have been declined entry without them. More pertinently it would have been foolish to travel to some of these places without said protective measures. This was in effect a vaccine passport so I admit to a certain bemusement over the claims about Rights.

Thx again for the civil conversation, almost unique in today’s world.

Note: aged 63, Australia, second AZ shot due in a fortnight

Vaccinated roll-call

Larry S

ChiefMark

mrbreen

mrbreen

Tony C.

mrbreen

Omegafanman

pdxleaf

Archer

Archer

STANDY

pdxleaf

Omegafanman

Tony C.

Omegafanman

Omegafanman

Tony C.

sxl2004

The Father

Pianotuna

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