Vaccinated roll-call

Tony C. · Aug 10, 2021

Archer
But the greatest risk by far is to unvaccinated people, not to vaccinated people.

There's no doubt that broadly speaking, people who are unvaccinated are at a higher risk of developing severe illness from COVID-19. Nor that, all things being equal, they pose a greater threat of spreading. But as all things are not close to being equal, the issue is more complicated than good/bad.

The chances of becoming severely ill or dying from the virus are much lower for the subset of people who are healthy, have high-functioning immune systems, no co-morbidities, high vitamin D levels, and practice reasonable safety (re: potential exposure to viral loads). Even an unvaccinated person of that description would almost certainly be safer than a vaccinated person who is at high risk, and/or behaves recklessly.

Again, I'm not making a broad argument against vaccinations, but pointing out that it is a more complicated issue than many believe.

Archer · Aug 10, 2021

Tony C.
There's no doubt that broadly speaking, people who are unvaccinated are at a higher risk of developing severe illness from COVID-19.

That's all that really needs to be said. Of course each individual must make decisions about their own safety. For example, even though I am double vaccinated, I take immune suppressing drugs that have been shown in studies to mute the response to the vaccine. Therefore I am still practicing pretty much all of the things I did when I was not vaccinated.

It really isn't all that complicated - if you are able to get vaccinated, get vaccinated. If you can and choose not to, well I call that natural selection.

Tony C. · Aug 10, 2021

p4ul
Careful reading of what data, please?

Also,

“Muchof the spreading at this point is the result of vaccinated people behaving unsafely, astheyare less likely to show symptoms, and many therefore falsely assume that they are "safe" around other people.”

do you have data for this, please?

Thank you

It should be blindingly obvious that only a small percentage of infected, asymptomatic, vaccinated people, would choose to get tested. And given that the vaccines do a good job of suppressing mild symptoms, that understanding alone should be enough to demonstrate how distorted the ~1% figure is.

A few days ago, Dr. Sharon Alroy-Preis, Israel's director of public health services, said that 50 percent of the current infections in that country are vaccinated individuals. And: "Previously we thought that fully vaccinated individuals are protected, but we now see that vaccine effectiveness is roughly 40 percent."

Now, there are many moving parts here. New variants, waning immunity (as Israel was one of the first countries to vaccinate a high percentage of its population), etc. But when you see numbers like that, the suggestion that "only 1%ish of the vaccinated contract Covid post vaccination" is revealed to be highly misleading.

sirtaifun · Aug 10, 2021

Archer
Hope you get it soon mate.

+1

Germany started to destroy stored vaccines due to reach of expiring date (so sad) and others that are close to will be donated to poor countrys.

Tony C. · Aug 10, 2021

Archer
It really isn't all that complicated - if you are able to get vaccinated, get vaccinated. If you can and choose not to, well I call that natural selection

Well, we view it a bit differently. From my standpoint, taking responsibility for one's health is much more about making good health a top priority in one's life, rather than relying on medical technology to save the day. Of course they are not mutually exclusive, but to use just one example, how much of a difference might it have made in the U.S., in terms of bad COVID outcomes, had the obesity rate been a tiny fraction of (the actual) ~40%?

p4ul · Aug 10, 2021

1%…peer reviewed published study in the NEJM the cohort did not choose to be tested, it was part of their occupational requirements.

Your quote of 40% vaccine effectiveness is taken out of context, essentially Israel are finding that the longevity of cover is insufficient. This is common with many vaccines, boosters are necessary.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...fectious-israeli-top-official-says-1.10068650

Archer · Aug 10, 2021

Tony C.
Well, we view it a bit differently. From my standpoint, taking responsibility for one's health is much more about making good health a top priority in one's life, rather than relying on medical technology to save the day. Of course they are not mutually exclusive, but to use just one example, how much of a difference might it have made in the U.S., in terms of bad COVID outcomes, had the obesity rate been a tiny fraction of (the actual) ~40%?

So if you get into a car accident, or fall of a horse and are injured, are you going to forgo the medical technology that may "save the day"?

Yes, personal choices are important. If you want to rely on natural immunity and overall "good health" to protect you from Covid, then what vaccinated people do shouldn't be your worry, right?

Tony C. · Aug 10, 2021

p4ul
Your quote of 40% vaccine effectiveness is taken out of context, essentially Israel are finding that the longevity of cover is insufficient. This is common with many vaccines, boosters are necessary.

No it wasn't taken out of context. I specifically made the point that waning immunity is just one of multiple complicating factors.

Please try to argue more honestly.

The Father · Aug 10, 2021

As a vaccinated individual I hope we can rely on the government emergency approval of the vaccines.

As we all know the reasons vaccines take years to develop is the study of long term affect of the man made vaccine.

5 or 10 years from now I will assume we will not have an "oh fυck" moment that we should have studied these vaccine more closely.

Demanding a person to vaccinate?

It's Ok, the government said so............

pdxleaf · Aug 10, 2021

The Father
Demanding a person to vaccinate?

It's Ok, the government said so............

If a person should be free to choose not to get vaccinated, shouldn't they accept the consequences?

Why do people who have had the opportunity to get vaccinated but chose not to do so still have the right to use hospitals and medical staff and lifesaving equipment that is paid for by insurance or paid for by the public?

pdxleaf · Aug 10, 2021

Tony C.
Well, we view it a bit differently. From my standpoint, taking responsibility for one's health is much more about making good health a top priority in one's life, rather than relying on medical technology to save the day. Of course they are not mutually exclusive, but to use just one example, how much of a difference might it have made in the U.S., in terms of bad COVID outcomes, had the obesity rate been a tiny fraction of (the actual) ~40%?

This is absurd. You are comparing obesity to covid?

Taking personal responsibility and making good health a top priority in your life means relaying on medical technology. They are not exclusive and not an either or.

We are not talking about eating too many oreos and doing yoga.

Archer · Aug 10, 2021

pdxleaf
This is absurd. You are comparing obesity to covid?

Taking personal responsibility and making good health a top priority in your life means relaying on medical technology. They are not exclusive and not an either or.

We are not talking about eating too many oreos and doing yoga.

Well, I do agree that eating poorly and lack of exercise fall under lifestyle choices for many, as does refusing the vaccine. So if Tony is going to damn people for some lifestyle choices (excess of Oreos and lack of yoga), then the other choices should be subject to the same scrutiny. 😉

p4ul · Aug 10, 2021

Tony C.
No it wasn't taken out of context. I specifically made the point that waning immunity is just one of multiple complicating factors.

Please try to argue more honestly.

I am not arguing or trying to argue honestly or dishonestly.
At launch the covid vaccines had a high degree of efficacy and that is still the case for vaccine naive patients.

I suggest forum members read the article that you quoted from for themselves.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...fectious-israeli-top-official-says-1.10068650

Tony C. · Aug 10, 2021

pdxleaf
This is absurd. You are comparing obesity to covid?.

Surely you can think more deeply than this. I wasn't comparing the two, as should have been obvious. Obesity is a significant risk factor in the likelihood of serious illness or death from COVID. Are you unaware of that?

Taking personal responsibility and making good health a top priority in your life means relaying on medical technology.

That's a profound misunderstanding.

They are not exclusive and not an either or.

What part of "Of course they are not mutually exclusive..." did you fail to understand?

Tony C. · Aug 10, 2021

p4ul
At launch the covid vaccines had a high degree of efficacy and that is still the case for vaccine naive patients.

The argument that we were having was about your claim that only ~1% of vaccinated people are infected. The numbers from Israel and elsewhere, reports from front-line doctors, and other points that I have made, clearly suggest that the actual percentage is far higher.

pdxleaf · Aug 10, 2021

Tony C.
Surely you can think more deeply than this. I wasn't comparing the two, as should have been obvious. Obesity is a significant risk factor in the likelihood of serious illness or death from COVID. Are you unaware of that?

That's a profound misunderstanding.

What part of "Of course they are not mutually exclusive..." did you fail to understand?

Agreed, except for your comment about my ability to think more deeply...

None of this matters if the question is between two alternatives, getting vaccinated or not. That is the question on the table.

Anything else such as obseity being a contributing factor to death from covid or government intervention or feedom of choice is only a distraction. Distractions that give anyone an excuse for not getting vaccinated are not helpful to the individual or greater good.

Do vaccines keep people alive?

Tony C. · Aug 10, 2021

pdxleaf
Do vaccines keep people alive?

Broadly speaking, and in the near-term, yes, and particularly with regard to those who are at the highest risk. However, their value to the low-risk population is not so straightforward, and there are good reasons to question whether they should be given to everyone.

None of this matters if the question is between two alternatives, getting vaccinated or not. That is the question on the table.

And the answer is, it depends.

gatorcpa · Aug 10, 2021

Tony C.
However, their value to the low-risk population is not so straightforward, and there are good reasons to question whether they should be given to everyone.

And their in lies the issue.

I’m in agreement that most healthy people have little to fear from COVID. However, it is impossible to know if you are one of that majority until you have it. At that point, you’ll find out, but it could be too late.

Because of this, I’ve gone back to working at home until the situation clears up somewhat in Florida. It’s not that I’m afraid of coming down with the virus, but I don’t know if I’m a carrier and I certainly don’t want to give it to someone else.

If everyone just had a little more compassion for their fellow humans, we would be done with this a lot faster.
gatorcpa

pdxleaf · Aug 10, 2021

Tony C.
Broadly speaking, and in the near-term, yes, and particularly with regard to those who are at the highest risk. However, their value to the low-risk population is not so straightforward, and there are good reasons to question whether they should be given to everyone.

And the answer is, it depends.

Agreed.

For 100% of the population, it does depend on individual factors.

For the 80% or so of the population that is needed to surpress the deadly impact of the virus, it doesn't depend on anything.
,
Thank you for speaking out for the individuals who won't benefit from a vaccine. I don't believe anyone here would suggest 100% forced vaccination. But we are a long way from this being a concern.

It seems to me that these legitimate concerns about minority populations are being used by anti-vaxxers to buttress their arguments.

The Father · Aug 10, 2021

pdxleaf
If a person should be free to choose not to get vaccinated, shouldn't they accept the consequences?

Why do people who have had the opportunity to get vaccinated but chose not to do so still have the right to use hospitals and medical staff and lifesaving equipment that is paid for by insurance or paid for by the public?

Sounds great.
We can include smokers, drinkers, fried food consumers to the list of those excluded from medical services.

Vaccinated roll-call

Tony C.

Archer

Tony C.

sirtaifun

Tony C.

p4ul

Archer

Tony C.

The Father

pdxleaf

pdxleaf

Archer

p4ul

Tony C.

Tony C.

pdxleaf

Tony C.

gatorcpa

pdxleaf

The Father

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