Things that people don’t know how to do anymore

[Doc Savage]

dsio

I had only read one novel by the age of 30, which was Dune as it somehow kept me engaged. ADHD had me in this loop where I would read a sentence, not absorb it, move on to the next, and then have to re-read the whole paragraph or page as I got the words, but the act of reading distracted from taking in the material. Dune was the one exception, when people said “the book was better than the movie” about something I figured they were lying because how could that be true, but Dune managed it through great writing.

At 30 I discovered audiobooks and it changed everything’s separating the reading and the absorbing solved it. I could write very well, exceptionally well at times even as the creative part came before the mechanical part but reading just never worked for me which is why I resented all of those claims that intelligent people read X books per year.

I have great empathy for my ADHD students, as well as those who were taught terrible reading strategies. I make a blanket suggestion at the beginning of each semester for students to listen to audio books if they find reading a challenge. I require them to take notes, regardless of which format they use to consume the book, and that helps them to be prepared for the classroom discussions.

 

[Doc Savage]

Evitzee

Well, that's the problem right there, the more government gets involved in something the worse it becomes. Look at the Department of Education in the US, created by Jimmy Carter back in 1980, can anyone claim that education has improved since then? Same with the government getting involved in student loans....result, astronomical prices. ...

I'm sorry, but this is backwards. It's a base list of common political talking points that serve only to obfuscate.

One of the main reasons college is so expensive is because states keep reducing their investment in higher education for the past 50 years. Boomers who could attend college for $250 per semester often don't realize this was precisely because their tuition was subsidized by their state government.

Evitzee

... Education doesn't have to be expensive, we have just chosen to make it so.

This is true. 50 years of "Cut taxes" at the state level have hollowed out the investment in higher ed. That's a choice, so you could definitely say we have chosen to make it more expensive. It's the classic example of "Mortgaging our children's future."

Edited: May 16, 2024

 

[hen]

Waltesefalcon

In the US we have had the idea of a socialized health care system bouncing around for fifty years. The Nixon, Clinton, and Obama administrations all seriously considered it as a strong and viable option for the public.

Our biggest problem here is that we allow corporate lobbying, which always sways our politics in favor of corporations. I think the 2009 push for a single payer system is the most famous illustration of this, despite having overwhelming majorities in both chambers of Congress and controlling the White House, instead of passing legislation to create a single payer system Democrats crafted legislation which forced all Americans to buy health insurance. I wonder who the Affordable Care Act truly benefited the most?

While this is only a short read, and so is not all that detailed it gives an interesting break down of the history and evolution of health insurance in the US.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-he...d-from-protecting-patients-to-seeking-profit/

Very interesting read and you make good points ( mostly because I agree 100% to be honest ).

In all political systems at all times it was the man with the most soldiers, money or "God" on his side that make the decisions. In modern times from nazi Germany and f..ing North Korea all the way to Putin and our modern democracies, its the men with the most wealth, power and propaganda control that really rule us by proxy politicians. I am so glad that I lived in a time and place where I was lulled into complacency by media propaganda and a rise in standards of living rather than violent oppression.

But we can do so much better than this. So much better than the petty squabbling over witch oligarchs puppet politician are going to enrich them selves on our cost and suffering.

So whats the answer then? I don`t know, I just a grumpy old man yelling at clouds in one of the worlds riches country's. Some form of direct democracy maybe? But I guess the bastards would hijack that too.

 

[Makesbelieve]

This thread smells strongly of old man whittling on a porch, yelling at kids to get off his lawn, while simultaneously reminiscing about the "good old days" to his non existent companion.

Dare I say it, that said old man is probably preaching to the converted here, this thread's 15 pages makes me think that the majority of you are already in your twilight years.

And I get it, as we age, the world can seem increasingly complex. Tastes evolve, technology advances rapidly, and it's natural to feel overwhelmed, frustrated or baffled by what's going on around you. However, it's important to remember that the world you currently find frustrating or disappointing is likely the one you helped shape in your younger years.

Maybe some light reflection on how the older amongst us have contributed to the mess we're in today is in order...

 

[pdxleaf]

Makesbelieve

This thread smells strongly of old man whittling on a porch, yelling at kids to get off his lawn, while simultaneously reminiscing about the "good old days" to his non existent companion.

..

I don't disagree, but it did start out light-hearted.

 

[hen]

Doc Savage

There has been substantial research over the past 10 years documenting how smartphones (and social media scrolling specifically) have had terrible effects on young minds. They squash creativity, drastically reduce attention spans, and (especially in women), have driven rates of anxiety and physical self-harm off the charts.

If anyone wants to know more, there is a new book by Jonathan Haidt, a social psychologist who has been at the forefront of the research in this area. The book is The Anxious Generation.

Could you ... like not use so many words and stuff.... its really uhh......like hurts my head and stuff.

As a teacher since 1994, with many years in between working in the petrochemical industry, I have argued against the use of computer and smart phones in education. Not that its not a fantastic tool, but like all other tools it has its uses and times where other tools are better suited, I could not wright English this good without a computer spellcheck, but just as calculators ruined my mental arithmetic, spellcheck have ruined my English writing skills. And as a youth today is on his/hers device for hours each day I think schools should emphasise developing other skills. As I work in a vocational school, that is off course handicraft skills. I firmly believe those skills have been crucial to develop our mental capacity, creativity and attention span since we first fell out of that tree so many thousand of years ago.

What you say about anxiety and self harm is just tragic. It hurts my soul to see fantastic young people crushed by the demands of those God damned influencers. Schools must be a free zone from that, educators must be the grown ups in the classrooms, because the social media industry will never take that responsibility.

 

[hen]

Makesbelieve

This thread smells strongly of old man whittling on a porch, yelling at kids to get off his lawn, while simultaneously reminiscing about the "good old days" to his non existent companion.

Dare I say it, that said old man is probably preaching to the converted here, this thread's 15 pages makes me think that the majority of you are already in your twilight years.

And I get it, as we age, the world can seem increasingly complex. Tastes evolve, technology advances rapidly, and it's natural to feel overwhelmed, frustrated or baffled by what's going on around you. However, it's important to remember that the world you currently find frustrating or disappointing is likely the one you helped shape in your younger years.

Maybe some light reflection on how the older amongst us have contributed to the mess we're in today is in order...

Get of my lawn, you whipper snapper!

What you say is true......mostly. Come on to my porch and have a coke and I will teach you how to whittle. And you can teach me about all these new scary things.

 

[Gav1967]

hen

I could not wright English this good

I really do hope this was a deliberate mistake/pun

 

[hen]

Gav1967

I really do hope this was a deliberate mistake/pun

Damn it I was about to wright " well".

I will stop now before I am tangled up in more mistakes. Damned lazy ass, drunkards vikings you would all be speaking Norwegian now if they just stayed the course a bit longer.

 

[sheepdoll]

Ouch Earworm.

Words! Words! Words!
I'm so sick of words!
I get words all day through;
First from him, now from you!
Is that all you blighters can do?
Don't talk of stars
burning above;
If you're in love,
Show me!
Tell me no dreams
filled with desire.
If you're on fire,
Show me!
...

 

[Archer]

hen

What you say about anxiety and self harm is just tragic. It hurts my soul to see fantastic young people crushed by the demands of those God damned influencers. Schools must be a free zone from that, educators must be the grown ups in the classrooms, because the social media industry will never take that responsibility.

I'm on the fence about smart phone use in schools. Young people need the skills to deal with them, because even if you ban them in school hours they will be using them out of school hours and long after they are finished school.

I understand the arguments for banning them, however since parents don't seem to be able to instill the skills that younger people need to deal with these devices (if they did we wouldn't have a problem), maybe it should be the school that does take on that role.

 

[Archer]

Makesbelieve

However, it's important to remember that the world you currently find frustrating or disappointing is likely the one you helped shape in your younger years.

It's all parts of the grand continuum, so the future world that you will surely find frustrating is also one that you will have helped shape.

Makesbelieve

Maybe some light reflection on how the older amongst us have contributed to the mess we're in today is in order...

Younger people do love to complain about what the older people have done to leave them in such a mess, just as we did when we were young, so this is hardly novel. But keep in mind that you are undoubtedly doing something right now that seems innocuous to you that will one day be looked upon with the same disdain that you have now towards some of what we older folk have done in our past. No one was deliberately planning your doom - just like you are doing now we were just living our lives, and doing our best to get on with it.

 

[ErichPryde]

Archer

since parents don't seem to be able to instill the skills that younger people need to deal with these devices (if they did we wouldn't have a problem), maybe it should be the school that does take on that role.

I think it's probably safe to say that many parents don't role model responsible phone use. I don't even know how to define what that is. If I want to take a picture of something, I pull out my phone. If I want to pay a bill, phone. If I want to write an email. If I want to schedule a meeting. Transfer money to a friend. Play music in the car. Navigation. Read a book. Use a flashlight. Open a car door. Shop for groceries.

There is almost no electronic activity that a phone is incapable of doing or being connected to, and many activities that didn't require an electronic device even a decade ago have become standardized to the phone.

They have wormed their way into our daily lives to such a degree and connected so many activities that you normally would never have to look at a phone screen for that not carrying one seems impractical for regular activity. That itself doesn't seem healthy.

Edited: May 16, 2024

 

[hen]

Archer

I'm on the fence about smart phone use in schools. Young people need the skills to deal with them, because even if you ban them in school hours they will be using them out of school hours and long after they are finished school.

I understand the arguments for banning them, however since parents don't seem to be able to instill the skills that younger people need to deal with these devices (if they did we wouldn't have a problem), maybe it should be the school that does take on that role.

Yes I see what you are saying and many great teachers are doing that. They try to teach how to use them as we user encyclopedias or dictionaries or how a certain question will have at least two sides. And most importantly how to be critical of what the find on the net. I try to teach the students how to use the devices as technical manual; what cutting speed to use, witch bearing to use with a 25 mm axle or to use them to take notes or take photos as they are dissembling a machine.

I think the problem are that students have had the device as a "nanny" or comforter from a young age, its second nature to them to go to their phones when ever they have a minute, they are never bored any more, just hungry for new content. This disrupts any kind of learning when you have to check your phone whenever it beep or vibrates or you just get the impulse to do so because you always do it.

So the use of any device is easily taught and learned, the challenge is how and when not to use it and how to compare what they find on the net with the values and maybe morals that they should have learned before going on the net, The "tech" industry wont do that and neither would their sycophantic fans. So I think teacher must be the adult in the class room and take the adult decision to leave the devices in cellphone "hostels" or in their bags much of the time.

As an example I was teaching a class on nuts and bolts or what ever, when they found some "glamour" pictures of a girl in the class. I could have taught balancing on a ball, wearing a tutu while juggling live badgers without getting any attention, naturally, as they were 16 year olds. Another side of the story was that the pictures was taken by a creepy armature photographer and published on his blog and the girl was just 16 or 17 and did not have the capability of knowing what she was doing of various rather tragic reasons. The school counsellor had a talk with both photographer and the girl and taught them both a valuable lesson.

 

[ghce]

Archer

It's all parts of the grand continuum, so the future world that you will surely find frustrating is also one that you will have helped shape.



Younger people do love to complain about what the older people have done to leave them in such a mess, just as we did when we were young, so this is hardly novel. But keep in mind that you are undoubtedly doing something right now that seems innocuous to you that will one day be looked upon with the same disdain that you have now towards some of what we older folk have done in our past. No one was deliberately planning your doom - just like you are doing now we were just living our lives, and doing our best to get on with it.

I am not so sure that's completely true, as a youngster myself ( born in 1961) when I look back at the older generation,my parents and their parents generations I have nothing but the utmost respect for what they achieved and its not till the mid 80's ie our generation that things have taken a decided turn for the worse.

Calculators in schools in the 70's were taken as a boon back then, not by me however, who could see the slippery path downward even at 13 years old, though I did love my Reverse Polish HP!
Calculators were the thin wedge in the door! not surprising that Smartphones / Google and AI were going to completely wreck young peoples educational rigour and adolescent brain development.

It used to be that Moore's Law was the trajectory for computer driven development ( well transistor density) but I think we can apply this to society as a whole when faced with these disruptive technologies and their effect on the Zeitgeist of current human development.

 

[Makesbelieve]

Archer

But keep in mind that you are undoubtedly doing something right now that seems innocuous to you that will one day be looked upon with the same disdain that you have now towards some of what we older folk have done in our past.

I think you underestimate my age, I'm sure we aren't too far off in years. My post was just as much a call to others to consider their role in getting us to this point as it was a reminder to myself.

Archer

Younger people do love to complain about what the older people have done to leave them in such a mess

With the knowledge that the average US 70 year old is 72% wealthier than they were 40 years ago, and the average person under the age of 40 is 24% less wealthy and that for the first time in US history a 30 year old man or woman isn't doing as well as their parents were at 30, it's obvious that young people definitely have the cards stacked against them and that somehow the generational contract seems to have fractured... in short, IMHO they have a right to complain.

(These statistics by the way are mirrored across the world, my home country New Zealand included.)

While I strongly believe in self-determination and taking responsibility for one's circumstances, these statistics paint a picture of a system heavily tilted against young people.

Anyway, I didn't want to detract from the topic at hand which was how no one today knows how to skin a racoon or forge a horse shoe.

As you were

 

[Braindrain]

ErichPryde

I think it's probably safe to say that many parents don't role model responsible phone use. I don't even know how to define what that is.

Back when portable cell phones were introduced (not the car phones) and one had to spend a fair bit of coin since you had to buy the phone outright (and not subsidized), the standard etiquette was to put your phone away/mute during dinner, shows, whatnot. Sure, there were a few heathens that didn't adhere to that, who usually got a "wtf are you doing?" look from me.

When phones starting becoming more ubiquitous, probably right around subsidized plans, that etiquette went right out the door.

So, yeah, the vast majority of adults can't even control their own addiction (to cell phones).

 

[ErichPryde]

Braindrain

So, yeah, the vast majority of adults can't even control their own addiction (to cell phones).

I guess my point is, how do we, as a culture, Define what is abnormal cell phone Behavior when pulling your cell phone out to do even the most basic tasks is completely normalized? What is abnormal and what is normal changes from generation to generation as @Makesbelieve has already pointed out. We've gone through periods when the use Of Opium was normal, alcohol was outlawed, and smoking in public, something totally normal 40 or 50 years ago is now offensive. Societal rules change.

But with cell phones, I feel that it is significantly more than that. How do we Define what is abnormal phone use when our society is normalizing the use of your cell phone for almost every single task we do? And as an extension of that if I have to pull out my cell phone to open my door or to pay at the grocery store or to start my car, is it really that shocking that I might look at the flurry of colorful alerts blinking to get my attention?

Imo that's the crux.

 

[Archer]

ghce

I am not so sure that's completely true, as a youngster myself ( born in 1961) when I look back at the older generation,my parents and their parents generations I have nothing but the utmost respect for what they achieved and its not till the mid 80's ie our generation that things have taken a decided turn for the worse.

I guess it depends on how you look at things. The USA and USSR nearly ended the world in the Cuban missile crisis - we celebrate the great stroke of "diplomacy" that made the Soviets back down, but the fact we came that close to begin with isn't what I would call any sort of success.

Vietnam, civil unrest in the 60's, the list goes on with turmoil all around well before the 80's. Note it was the hippies of the 60's that were the corporate people of the 80's.

I think the thing with the way this is being discussed is that people are either looking at if from a very personal viewpoint, or are looking at society more broadly (and those who made the real decisions - not the average person) and coming to very different conclusions.

 

[Archer]

Makesbelieve

I think you underestimate my age, I'm sure we aren't too far off in years. My post was just as much a call to others to consider their role in getting us to this point as it was a reminder to myself.

You will have to forgive me, as I don't know you at all. Your post was written in a very "millennial" way for lack of a better term, so I responded in that vein.

Makesbelieve

With the knowledge that the average US 70 year old is 72% wealthier than they were 40 years ago, and the average person under the age of 40 is 24% less wealthy and that for the first time in US history a 30 year old man or woman isn't doing as well as their parents were at 30, it's obvious that young people definitely have the cards stacked against them and that somehow the generational contract seems to have fractured... in short, IMHO they have a right to complain.

If your complaint is purely economic, then these are very good points. But I guess the question that comes to mind when someone says something like:

"Maybe some light reflection on how the older amongst us have contributed to the mess we're in today is in order..."

Is what have you or I done personally to cause this? Unless I misunderstand the people who inhabit this forum, I don't believe any of us have any real "power" in society. So what specifically should we have done differently as the average person?

By the way, many of those 70 year olds who are so wealthy are poised to leave a record wealth transfer to the younger generation, but this is only for the wealthy families. This will further widen the gap between rich and poor. So if "we" should be doing something to fight this inequality, what would your proposal be to mitigate this widening gap? Should we more heavily tax the inheritance and give it to less fortunate? Would you vote for a political party that would do that?

I don't disagree with the generalizations you are making really. Right now I'm reading a very interesting book on the causes of ongoing poverty in the Western world, so this is very much top of mind for me at the moment. But generalizations about society aren't the same as specific actions that we as individuals take.