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489G
·Thank you TNTwatch for answering the same question I had but was reluctant to ask because I ask too many questions... Thanks for posing it, JimInOz!
The curious story of an Omega Tower Clock 1928 in a remote village in Greece
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TNTwatch
·Thank you TNTwatch for answering the same question I had but was reluctant to ask because I ask too many questions... Thanks for posing it, JimInOz!
There could be another possibility where the original clock had a complete electric movement, without pendulum or weights, that was replaced by a complete manual movement with pendulum and weights. There appears to be no sign of this in your pictures so I think it is rather far-fetched scenario to replaced in whole a more modern electric equipment with a much older, more complicated, more labour involved piece of equipment.
A note about the short travel distance of the current weights, just a few hours short of 7 days must cause the winding schedule to be a moving target. I think adding pulleys or lowering the ground a little bit would help with this problem.
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styggpyggeno1
·Your quest intrigues me. I could not resist investigating the anchor symbol with a C and a F. It is a very, very small part of your investigation but here is my contribution:
Do a google search on "Camion Frères" and "Camion Frères Ardennes" and then look at picture results and you will see who made your swivel lock.
Very unlikely to have anything to do with the clock but at least it is a small part of the puzzle.
Do a google search on "Camion Frères" and "Camion Frères Ardennes" and then look at picture results and you will see who made your swivel lock.
Very unlikely to have anything to do with the clock but at least it is a small part of the puzzle.
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489G
· styggpyggeno1 , you are officially my hero today! I am so thrilled with your discovery, I must have spent 12 hours looking for that small anchor! I nearly shouted EUREKA! when I found a trademark of a small German clock manufacturer called C. Baker at Nauen, (Brandenburg), Germany (see red herring photo, number 35 on the trademarks). But I had to concede defeat when I couldn't convince myself that the letter at the right of the swivel lock's anchor was not a F (it is clearly an F...).
So, bravo! Hats off! I'm showing a few items of Camion Freres, their catalogue showing swivel locks (!) and the imprint of their anchor on a metal surface. Photos from Google images https://tinyurl.com/gtrgm7e
Let's recapitulate:
- Dials from Jura or elsewhere in France
- Bell from Aarau Switzerland
- Door swivel lock from the Ardennes (the Camion Frères company, founded in 1820 at Vivier-au-Court - MANUFACTURE DE FERRONNERIE.QUINCAILLERIE & FONDERIE.)
- An Omega representative in Greece installs the clock
- Clock - told by several people that it is not French but could be German or Swiss or Dutch...
So, I went strolling to Vivier-au-Court (thank you Google street view) and what did I see in Rue Alphonse Panier? Check it out, people! https://tinyurl.com/jdhymrx
Yes! A tower clock!
Where do you propose we go from here? I say we check if Vivier-au-Court had a clock manufacturer and then try to climb the tower and have a look at the Vivier-au-Court Church clock.
Are we getting closer to solving the mystery? I say we are.
So, bravo! Hats off! I'm showing a few items of Camion Freres, their catalogue showing swivel locks (!) and the imprint of their anchor on a metal surface. Photos from Google images https://tinyurl.com/gtrgm7e
Let's recapitulate:
- Dials from Jura or elsewhere in France
- Bell from Aarau Switzerland
- Door swivel lock from the Ardennes (the Camion Frères company, founded in 1820 at Vivier-au-Court - MANUFACTURE DE FERRONNERIE.QUINCAILLERIE & FONDERIE.)
- An Omega representative in Greece installs the clock
- Clock - told by several people that it is not French but could be German or Swiss or Dutch...
So, I went strolling to Vivier-au-Court (thank you Google street view) and what did I see in Rue Alphonse Panier? Check it out, people! https://tinyurl.com/jdhymrx
Yes! A tower clock!
Where do you propose we go from here? I say we check if Vivier-au-Court had a clock manufacturer and then try to climb the tower and have a look at the Vivier-au-Court Church clock.
Are we getting closer to solving the mystery? I say we are.
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Syrte
·Ok, we're getting there. I am being helped enormously by knowledgeable people.
S. Bourla et Fils, a family of jewelers, were the Omega representatives in the nearby city of Thessaloniki (Salonika) at the time. This is also in line with the information provided by JimInOz in his link. A Solomon (Charles) Bourla appears in the book The Agony of Greek Jews, 1940–1945 By Steven Bowman. We get a matching S. Bourla.
Also being conclusively told that the clock cannot possibly be an Omega, as Omega never manufactured clocks.
So, to sum up what we know or has been suggested so far:
1) Not an Omega.
2) Faces strikingly similar to faces made by Odobey Cadet of Morez, Jura.
3) S. Bourla et Fils, representatives of Omega in Greece at the time, having their name (and the Omega name in Greek) put on the clock faces.
4) Mechanism looks "older that the Omega company name, and likely would date back to the Louis Brandt era. And I think I am safe in saying that Louis Brandt nor his sons had anything to do with the actual manufacture of this clock".
5) Clock bell is made by Ruetschi AG, Aarau
6) No identifiable markings on the clock mechanism.
The plot thickens....
PS. (I had to delete a previous post of mine, a red herring...)
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489G
·Hi Syrte, I think you are right in surmising that the name was put as an early form of advertisement. Others have also suggested that. Barring a surprising discovery to the contrary, we may assume that Bourla (an Omega representative in Greece) was the installer of the clock and that the clock was not an Omega. The town people insist that the inscriptions were there from the very beginning.
Thanks for helping us solve the mystery.
Thanks for helping us solve the mystery.
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dialstatic
·This is so cool...and I'm very happy that my Ob servation Bourla being a common family name in the jewelry trade wasn't a red herring 😀
Yes, I think an advertisement makes sense. I've also seen Dutch authorized dealers who identify themselves starting with the brand name, especially in the car industry ("Audi Van Hoof") - this could well be something similar.
Don't know much about tower clocks, but if I have time, I'll check out if I can find anything from The Netherlands.
Yes, I think an advertisement makes sense. I've also seen Dutch authorized dealers who identify themselves starting with the brand name, especially in the car industry ("Audi Van Hoof") - this could well be something similar.
Don't know much about tower clocks, but if I have time, I'll check out if I can find anything from The Netherlands.
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489G
·This is so cool...and I'm very happy that my Ob servation Bourla being a common family name in the jewelry trade wasn't a red herring 😀
Yes, I think an advertisement makes sense. I've also seen Dutch authorized dealers who identify themselves starting with the brand name, especially in the car industry ("Audi Van Hoof") - this could well be something similar.
Don't know much about tower clocks, but if I have time, I'll check out if I can find anything from The Netherlands.
That is very interesting to know. Yes, please do try sources in The Netherlands. And thanks again for the tip on the Sephardi Jews!
By the way, is it too far-fetched to try to guess what other clock manufacturers an Omega representative in Greece would have known? How would he go about ordering a tower clock from different sources (dial, clock, bell)? Any thoughts?
I can't stop thinking that maybe Omega would have something to do with it. Is it not plausible that upon receiving an order from Jean Nicou for a tower clock (something Omega didn't manufacture) he would ask his associates in Omega, Biel for help? He was, after all, their representative...
So. Bell manufacturers? They suggest Ruetschi AG in nearby Aarau. Dial manufacturers? Just across the border, in the Jura. Brass parts. The Ardennes.
Electric tower clock? Whom does Omega know or work with or share know-how?
By the way, Jean Nicou, the very wealthy émigré, was by no means a nobody. He was a friend of Georges Clemenceau (Prime Minister of France), Lloyd George (Prime Minister of the United Kingdom), a close friend of the Greek Prime Minister (Eleftherios Venizelos) and decorated by the King of Sweden Gustaf V and the Greek King Constantine I (photos from wikipedia). Attached sepia photo of Jean Nicou, standing outside, with decorations and medals (from the book "Souvenirs of Nymfaion" by Nikolaos Mertzos).
If I were the Omega representative I would make pretty darn sure I got the best advise on what to buy for this client and source the best materials from the finest manufacturers. Remember, he also had money to spend.
Edited:
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489G
·What if we started naming names?
A) Let's make a list of all European tower clock manufacturers in the 1920's who powered their 'electric' clocks with glass batteries (or whose clock mechanisms could accommodate such a feature). There can't be that many. A method of elimination, perhaps?
I'm starting by re-reading the excellent article on electric clocks here: http://www.chronometrophilia.ch/Electric-clocks/english.htm
B) And since everything we take a closer look at seems NOT to be manufactured locally, let's have another look at the weights. Because it's one of the few things marked with something that we have yet to identify...
Remember, the things with some kind of marking on it are:
1) the four dials, with "ΩΜΕΓΑ" and "ΜΠΟΥΡΛΑ"
2) the panel door swivel lock, with the CAMION FRERES logo
3) the clock's 'housing', with "Fragile" at its base, as seen from the floor below
4) the pendulum, with FB 5.70 or 570 (is this indicative of the pendulum's weight or length?)
5) the bell, marked "Ruetschi AG, Aarau, 1928"
6) one of the weights, with a crude "JCB 6370"
Let's attack those two problems today!
A) Let's make a list of all European tower clock manufacturers in the 1920's who powered their 'electric' clocks with glass batteries (or whose clock mechanisms could accommodate such a feature). There can't be that many. A method of elimination, perhaps?
I'm starting by re-reading the excellent article on electric clocks here: http://www.chronometrophilia.ch/Electric-clocks/english.htm
B) And since everything we take a closer look at seems NOT to be manufactured locally, let's have another look at the weights. Because it's one of the few things marked with something that we have yet to identify...
Remember, the things with some kind of marking on it are:
1) the four dials, with "ΩΜΕΓΑ" and "ΜΠΟΥΡΛΑ"
2) the panel door swivel lock, with the CAMION FRERES logo
3) the clock's 'housing', with "Fragile" at its base, as seen from the floor below
4) the pendulum, with FB 5.70 or 570 (is this indicative of the pendulum's weight or length?)
5) the bell, marked "Ruetschi AG, Aarau, 1928"
6) one of the weights, with a crude "JCB 6370"
Let's attack those two problems today!
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489G
·Received a welcome piece of factual information today!
The Ruetschi AG clock bell company in Aarau, Switzerland, has confirmed that they made the bell in 1928 and that the order did not come directly from the customer (Jean Nicou) but, as several of you had already surmised, from some intermediary.
Here is the actual reply (in German):
"Es ist richtig, dass die Glocke von uns gegossen wurde. Jedoch kam die Bestellung nicht vom Endkunden, sondern von einem Zwischenhändler."
I am not surprised that a 600 year old company knows how to keep good records! Good job Ruetschi!
We're making progress, I think. Baby steps.
Now, who could that intermediary be? The Omega representative in Greece, S. Bourla et Fils, who might have ordered the different parts of the clock from various sources, or the actual manufacturer of the clock who might have contacted Ruetschi to manufacture the bell for the clock they were making?
Mysteries, mysteries..
The Ruetschi AG clock bell company in Aarau, Switzerland, has confirmed that they made the bell in 1928 and that the order did not come directly from the customer (Jean Nicou) but, as several of you had already surmised, from some intermediary.
Here is the actual reply (in German):
"Es ist richtig, dass die Glocke von uns gegossen wurde. Jedoch kam die Bestellung nicht vom Endkunden, sondern von einem Zwischenhändler."
I am not surprised that a 600 year old company knows how to keep good records! Good job Ruetschi!
We're making progress, I think. Baby steps.
Now, who could that intermediary be? The Omega representative in Greece, S. Bourla et Fils, who might have ordered the different parts of the clock from various sources, or the actual manufacturer of the clock who might have contacted Ruetschi to manufacture the bell for the clock they were making?
Mysteries, mysteries..
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lando
·That is impressive. As they know, that it was an intermediary, i suppose they do not want to share the info, who that intermediary was. It would be strange if they simply put "Zwischenhändler" in their records.
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489G
·Exciting news, pouring in this morning!
As you know, I decided to concentrate on the secondary dial, hoping to identify the clock makers from there. A person in this forum (to whom I am indebted, you know who you are!) suggested I contact the www.TheTimeWorkshop.uk (a centre for research and restoration into turret clocks and electric master clocks, housing one ff the largest collections of English, German, Swiss, French, Czech, Austrian, and Swedish turret clocks).
This is the very interesting piece of information I got back from Andy Burdon (slightly edited):
Looking at the time setting dial on the clock there were as far as I know only two companies that used this style of dial and hands. These two were both Swiss companies, Mäder of Andelfingen and A Bär, Gwatt Thun, Switzerland.
I have pasted pictures below of examples of these two. The Bär clock is my own one and the Mäder is a stock picture from the Internet.
If this clock was installed in 1928 it is possible that it was made to be released by a slave mechanism from a master clock and this would explain the presence of batteries. There are many examples of German clocks of this date without pendulum and with a slave clock release instead. It would be very easy for this part of be removed and a conventional pendulum and escapement inserted into the movement. [...] I have not as yet seen a clock from either of these two makers with this detail but that does not mean they did not do it. This feature would make the clock very accurate as the time is controlled by a accurate electric master clock pendulum instead of the turret clock mechanism itself. It is effectively a very detached escapement. Is there any evidence of a master clock? [...]
The wooden case for the clock is a very typical German / Swiss style one and the swivel lock handles you detailed in the Omega forum were used by all the Clock manufacturers on their cases.
He also had this to say about the master clock when I mentioned that the building (remember, the building was a school) had an electric clock installed in one of the offices and well as several clocks in one of each classrooms, again powered by batteries in series:
Your description of the clocks in the school are exactly how most were done. A master clock in the headmasters office, slave clocks throughout the school all wired in series with a set of batteries running the system. It would therefore make sense to make the turret clock controlled by the same master and the wiring in some of your pictures would seem to confirm this. In the largest systems ever installed one master clock could control 1000's of slave clocks.
The case for your clock is typical of all German/Swiss clocks and it is likely that it formed part of the packing crate for delivery hence the Fragile logo on the bottom of the case.
By the way as I was going through the pictures again this morning I also recognised the pendulum bob, it's a kitchen frying pan! ...It would be very easy to take a frying pan, fill it with melted lead and make it into a bob.
So, with all this amazing information I quickly (virtually) fly to Andelfingen, Switzerland and drop on their front webpage (not front door, but almost). Imagine my surprise when I see the dial and bell they have on their website. Yes, the same Jura-type face and the Ruetschi bell logo! Check it yourselves! http://www.turmuhren-schweiz.ch/
The company describes itself as so:
Johann Mäder & Son, Illhart 1798. The Turmuhrenfabrik Mäder AG in Andelfingen is today the leading manufacturer of tower clocks, electric Glockenläuteanlagen, chimes, special watches in Switzerland.
So all five pieces of the puzzle found in the same place. Outer dials/faces, secondary dial, bell, electric, Swiss.
I fired off an email to them and I'm now waiting to see if they will confirm that they were the clock makers, the 'intermediaries' the Ruetschi company referred to in their reply.
Fingers crossed! Attaching photos of the dials, kindly sent by Andy Burdon. He is independently investigating the A Bar connection, hoping to identify the clockmaker there. Anyone know if A Bär is still around?
I am also very much indebted to a Swiss expert who has received proof that the clock cannot possibly be French and that he very much doubts that the clock is German.
We are closer to solving the mystery and it might be a purely Swiss one too!
As you know, I decided to concentrate on the secondary dial, hoping to identify the clock makers from there. A person in this forum (to whom I am indebted, you know who you are!) suggested I contact the www.TheTimeWorkshop.uk (a centre for research and restoration into turret clocks and electric master clocks, housing one ff the largest collections of English, German, Swiss, French, Czech, Austrian, and Swedish turret clocks).
This is the very interesting piece of information I got back from Andy Burdon (slightly edited):
Looking at the time setting dial on the clock there were as far as I know only two companies that used this style of dial and hands. These two were both Swiss companies, Mäder of Andelfingen and A Bär, Gwatt Thun, Switzerland.
I have pasted pictures below of examples of these two. The Bär clock is my own one and the Mäder is a stock picture from the Internet.
If this clock was installed in 1928 it is possible that it was made to be released by a slave mechanism from a master clock and this would explain the presence of batteries. There are many examples of German clocks of this date without pendulum and with a slave clock release instead. It would be very easy for this part of be removed and a conventional pendulum and escapement inserted into the movement. [...] I have not as yet seen a clock from either of these two makers with this detail but that does not mean they did not do it. This feature would make the clock very accurate as the time is controlled by a accurate electric master clock pendulum instead of the turret clock mechanism itself. It is effectively a very detached escapement. Is there any evidence of a master clock? [...]
The wooden case for the clock is a very typical German / Swiss style one and the swivel lock handles you detailed in the Omega forum were used by all the Clock manufacturers on their cases.
He also had this to say about the master clock when I mentioned that the building (remember, the building was a school) had an electric clock installed in one of the offices and well as several clocks in one of each classrooms, again powered by batteries in series:
Your description of the clocks in the school are exactly how most were done. A master clock in the headmasters office, slave clocks throughout the school all wired in series with a set of batteries running the system. It would therefore make sense to make the turret clock controlled by the same master and the wiring in some of your pictures would seem to confirm this. In the largest systems ever installed one master clock could control 1000's of slave clocks.
The case for your clock is typical of all German/Swiss clocks and it is likely that it formed part of the packing crate for delivery hence the Fragile logo on the bottom of the case.
By the way as I was going through the pictures again this morning I also recognised the pendulum bob, it's a kitchen frying pan! ...It would be very easy to take a frying pan, fill it with melted lead and make it into a bob.
So, with all this amazing information I quickly (virtually) fly to Andelfingen, Switzerland and drop on their front webpage (not front door, but almost). Imagine my surprise when I see the dial and bell they have on their website. Yes, the same Jura-type face and the Ruetschi bell logo! Check it yourselves! http://www.turmuhren-schweiz.ch/
The company describes itself as so:
Johann Mäder & Son, Illhart 1798. The Turmuhrenfabrik Mäder AG in Andelfingen is today the leading manufacturer of tower clocks, electric Glockenläuteanlagen, chimes, special watches in Switzerland.
So all five pieces of the puzzle found in the same place. Outer dials/faces, secondary dial, bell, electric, Swiss.
I fired off an email to them and I'm now waiting to see if they will confirm that they were the clock makers, the 'intermediaries' the Ruetschi company referred to in their reply.
Fingers crossed! Attaching photos of the dials, kindly sent by Andy Burdon. He is independently investigating the A Bar connection, hoping to identify the clockmaker there. Anyone know if A Bär is still around?
I am also very much indebted to a Swiss expert who has received proof that the clock cannot possibly be French and that he very much doubts that the clock is German.
We are closer to solving the mystery and it might be a purely Swiss one too!
Edited:
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489G
·
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JimInOz
··Melbourne AustraliaGood progress.
Let me add some thoughts.
The pendulum marks may be those of a frying pan maker or other mundane origin, my guess is based on the very rudimentary cobbling together of the pendulum/escapement mechanism.
The weights (previously mentioned as maybe a shell casing) are probably standard clock weights salvaged from somewhere else.
If the were from shell casings, they would have had a soft copper driving band very close to the base.
I await further news!
Cheers
Jim
Let me add some thoughts.
The pendulum marks may be those of a frying pan maker or other mundane origin, my guess is based on the very rudimentary cobbling together of the pendulum/escapement mechanism.
The weights (previously mentioned as maybe a shell casing) are probably standard clock weights salvaged from somewhere else.
If the were from shell casings, they would have had a soft copper driving band very close to the base.
I await further news!
Cheers
Jim
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JimInOz
··Melbourne AustraliaWhile I was typing you found more info!
Excellent.
Onward onward..........................
Excellent.
Onward onward..........................
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lillatroll
·The Omega connection might be that the buyer of the school clocks got a discount on them if he agreed to advertise Omega on the tower dial, the actual dial makers might not of wanted or allow the official logo on their dial so they wrote it in greek and everyone was happy?
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JimInOz
··Melbourne AustraliaHa Ha!!!!!
Just saw that somebody else knows about fryin pans!
😁
Just saw that somebody else knows about fryin pans!
😁
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JimInOz
··Melbourne AustraliaAnd I wonder what Greek mother suddenly couldn't find her broomstick?
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489G
·The Omega connection might be that the buyer of the school clocks got a discount on them if he agreed to advertise Omega on the tower dial, the actual dial makers might not of wanted or allow the official logo on their dial so they wrote it in greek and everyone was happy?
Cannot rule it out, I guess. Thank for the input!
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Georgieboy58
·Looking at the homepage you mentioned above, you only need to speak to one company in Switzerland now:
"Die Rüetschi AG Glockengiesserei und Kirchturmtechnik übernimmt die Mäder AG Andelfingen per 1. September 2007. Durch diese von beiden Firmen erwünschte Zusammenlegung entsteht ein auf die gesamte Kirchturmtechnik spezialisiertes Unternehmen. Zudem übernimmt Rüetschi auch den Bereich Kirchturmtechnik der Uhrenfabrik Thun-Gwatt Wittwer-Bär AG in Thun."
Rüetschi AG Glockengiesserei has taken over Mäder AG and Uhrenfabrik Thun-Gwatt Wittwer-Bär AG in 2007.
"Die Rüetschi AG Glockengiesserei und Kirchturmtechnik übernimmt die Mäder AG Andelfingen per 1. September 2007. Durch diese von beiden Firmen erwünschte Zusammenlegung entsteht ein auf die gesamte Kirchturmtechnik spezialisiertes Unternehmen. Zudem übernimmt Rüetschi auch den Bereich Kirchturmtechnik der Uhrenfabrik Thun-Gwatt Wittwer-Bär AG in Thun."
Rüetschi AG Glockengiesserei has taken over Mäder AG and Uhrenfabrik Thun-Gwatt Wittwer-Bär AG in 2007.
