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The C-Cased Constellation Thread
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vibe
·The time has come for the final judgement by @kaplan. Will he deem that this watch bears a redial, or did @vibe, against all odds (-0.1% to be exact) find an original galvanic gilt Omega C case Constellation. Will it be a unicorn, or will it be Dr. Frankenstein’s monster? The watch collector world lies in wait under a cloud of uncertainty until the final proclamation. Vibe had gone into uncharted territory; to a place where he had to consult his own knowledge and perceptual abilities. He dared to not consult the great Kaplan, who rules over the 86 page tome of the C Case Constellation thread before purchasing a watch on the interwebs. An incredibly risky move, but one that may serve a slice of humble pie to the king.
I’m just having a bit of fun but I find it incredibly arrogant to tell a fellow seasoned collector that a watch (with 99.9+% certainty) is a redial without a macro shot and by only looking at an off-angle photo. It reeks of gatekeeping and it is caustic for the community. There is a reason why seasoned collectors say that they cannot judge a watch without good, clear macros. But also, I wasn’t asking for your judgement because I can do that myself and having to prove it to you is just silly. A much more useful discourse would be to say wow, that seems like it might be an unknown example, post some macros when you get a chance. Then everyone can learn something; including you!
I’m just having a bit of fun but I find it incredibly arrogant to tell a fellow seasoned collector that a watch (with 99.9+% certainty) is a redial without a macro shot and by only looking at an off-angle photo. It reeks of gatekeeping and it is caustic for the community. There is a reason why seasoned collectors say that they cannot judge a watch without good, clear macros. But also, I wasn’t asking for your judgement because I can do that myself and having to prove it to you is just silly. A much more useful discourse would be to say wow, that seems like it might be an unknown example, post some macros when you get a chance. Then everyone can learn something; including you!
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SOG53
·The text on a gilt dial should be color of the underlying base metal, in this case silver. This looks white, and text is very grainy and speckled.
I am not convinced based on these photos (dated 2023 btw)
I am not convinced based on these photos (dated 2023 btw)
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Peemacgee
··Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungersYep - we need much better pics than that.
(I’m still not keen on that second M - but it could still be the pics)
(I’m still not keen on that second M - but it could still be the pics)
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vibe
·Tough crowd! I guess you can't take my word for it. THE TEXT IS SILVER SILVER SILVER. this is also a later serial (30276XXX)
than the one on lorologiese so there may be some wear to the cliché that applied the masking. But it is gilt for sure.
than the one on lorologiese so there may be some wear to the cliché that applied the masking. But it is gilt for sure.
Edited:
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kaplan
·Tough crowd! I guess you can't take my word for it. THE TEXT IS SILVER SILVER SILVER. this is also a later serial (30276XXX)
than the one on lorologiese so there may be some wear to the cliché that applied the masking. But it is gilt for sure.
But there are 2 reasons why I am forcing the issue, 1) Maybe you have a recourse you can use - if you bought this watch as an original/unrestored dial and you can get money back 2) Every sale these restorers make, births 2 new watches, they improve their craft, unoriginal watches multiply, there may come a point where unoriginal watches start wrongly authenticating each other. For example if you could find another example of your own watch being advertised somewhere as all original, you would be more inclined to believe it actually is
Even despite everything if it turns out to be a prototype watch, it's a very unfortunate one as it made its debut in a refinished case
1) Indices are painted and paint is imperfect / uneven / overflowing
2) The text is over the base layer as paint, under any lacquer - low quality / uneven
What you have is a later variant of the dial refinished
This is what an original gilt dial looks like, it's not silver paint, it's like a pure mirror as the font texture
Last photo from the matte variant, the best close photo I had of the typography - so your theory on your dial being a late gilt is interesting, but I don't think it matches the serifs either - they just did a good approximation
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vibe
·1) The fact remains that it is a gilt dial, so therefore it is not a redial. It is simply not the method used for a redial.
2) The typography matches that of the known examples (however few) however there is plating diffusion present on mine. If you were to overlay the text with a know example the typography matches.
Under high magnification with my B&L discecting microscope you can see that the masking was indeed not perfect and there is plating diffusion.
there is a nice article on gilt dials on lorologiese.
https://lorologiese.com/galvanic-gilt-dials-secrets-the-golden-negative-space/
"Edges of text: Under magnification, the gilt text in galvanic plates can show slightly soft due to plating diffusion, but the characters are usually and more sharply edged"
2) The typography matches that of the known examples (however few) however there is plating diffusion present on mine. If you were to overlay the text with a know example the typography matches.
Under high magnification with my B&L discecting microscope you can see that the masking was indeed not perfect and there is plating diffusion.
there is a nice article on gilt dials on lorologiese.
https://lorologiese.com/galvanic-gilt-dials-secrets-the-golden-negative-space/
"Edges of text: Under magnification, the gilt text in galvanic plates can show slightly soft due to plating diffusion, but the characters are usually and more sharply edged"
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SOG53
·The text is printed in relief.
[/QUOTE]
From the article you referenced:
“Knowing how to tell a true gilt dial from a printed or gilt-tone imitation is essential:
• Recessed or sunken effect: In a true gilt, the black plating sits slightly above or around the printed text, making the gilt elements appear recessed. In painted dials, text lies directly on top of the black.”
Gilt dial text is not in relief, it is the opposite (recessed). Painted text is in relief.
Gilt dial technique was largely abandoned by mid- late 60s. The SN on your watch dates it to around 1970 which would be quite late for a gilt dial.
Your photos do not look at all like gilt text. They look like painted. And as you state under high power magnification “texting printed in relief”. Compare them to other examples shown here and in the article you quoted.
This is why I remained unconvinced that it is gilt dial. Whether it’s a redial is a different issue.
[/QUOTE]
From the article you referenced:
“Knowing how to tell a true gilt dial from a printed or gilt-tone imitation is essential:
• Recessed or sunken effect: In a true gilt, the black plating sits slightly above or around the printed text, making the gilt elements appear recessed. In painted dials, text lies directly on top of the black.”
Gilt dial text is not in relief, it is the opposite (recessed). Painted text is in relief.
Gilt dial technique was largely abandoned by mid- late 60s. The SN on your watch dates it to around 1970 which would be quite late for a gilt dial.
Your photos do not look at all like gilt text. They look like painted. And as you state under high power magnification “texting printed in relief”. Compare them to other examples shown here and in the article you quoted.
This is why I remained unconvinced that it is gilt dial. Whether it’s a redial is a different issue.
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vibe
·I know that in gilt, and I have examined it at 45x. Text is not printed and I have stated that numerous times.. And I have also explained that a cliché is used to to print a masking layer, which is removed after the dial is galvanized. That is why the text appears in relief and the text on this dial is indeed in relief as I have said over and over. There is not an ink or paint on earth that has a silver color that mimics a gilt dial. Apparently, y’all don’t believe what I see with my own eyes so I guess I’ll go back to the Rolex section.
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kaplan
·AU TOMATIC reminded me of this clip - both the way he pronounces AU TOMATIC like it's on your dial, and the use of VHS - if you've seen this clip I guess you'd claim it can't be made in 2000's as it's VHS
If it is indeed GILT, then someone took the time and made a gilt redial 😀
The black indeed has the depth of a gilt, many artisans in Japan, maybe someone was crazy enough to test the process. Maybe even the listing mentioned the process, which you neglected to share
If it is indeed GILT, then someone took the time and made a gilt redial 😀
The black indeed has the depth of a gilt, many artisans in Japan, maybe someone was crazy enough to test the process. Maybe even the listing mentioned the process, which you neglected to share
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vibe
·AU TOMATIC reminded me of this clip - both the way he pronounces AU TOMATIC like it's on your dial, and the use of VHS - if you've seen this clip I guess you'd claim it can't be made in 2000's as it's VHS
If it is indeed GILT, then someone took the time and made a gilt redial 😀
The black indeed has the depth of a gilt, many artisans in Japan, maybe someone was crazy enough to test the process. Maybe even the listing mentioned the process, which you neglected to share
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kaplan
·Ok, so all furniture was removed from a dial (that you said earlier was 99.9%+ silver brushed dial) was then plated. The same exact cliché that was used in other known examples was used for the masking layer. Then the dial was galvanized. Then the dial was lacquered, and then all of the furniture was put back on without damaging any of the metal., yeah, sounds totally likely ha ha
Edit: Also watch some redialing videos, what you described is a piece of cake for redialers, of course they remove all indices and then REPAINT them, like the ones on your dial 😀
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liquidsongbird
·I’ve hesitated to comment as it’s been entertaining to say the least…but how does the spacing in AU TOMATIC get explained? I can’t recall seeing that on any original Constellation.
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CPRwatch
·
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Trex66
·My primary concern is the M in 'chronometer' appears to have a narrower stance and less pronounced shoulders than the M in 'automatic'.
However, it may simply be an artifact of the photo - better images would help.
Looking forward to seeing them.
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Peemacgee
··Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungersNoticed this too. i have been primarily absent from this forum but hey this watch is an interesting study.. it looks all original but upon closer look it looks not but a very good redial.. but I'm no expert, just happened to own or have owned 10 of these but nothing in gilt text..
He has examples of this anomalous M on dials that he considers correct - so my comments may have been incorrect- but why Omega would do this intentionally only they would know.
(This is why I try to stay away from all things C case because Omega appeared to have lost their minds when producing them. )
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Trex66
·I’ve had an off-line discussion with @kaplan about this.
He has examples of this anomalous M on dials that he considers correct - so my comments may have been incorrect- but why Omega would do this intentionally only they would know.
(This is why I try to stay away from all things C case because Omega appeared to have lost their minds when producing them. )
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Peemacgee
··Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungersit can also be noticed that the First T in automatic is a bit too far from letter U compared to mine or others who has posted their C Case, it also looked a bit slanted at the bottom. If this is genuine, it's a bit odd, if this is a redial, very well done I should say
The spacing on the ‘automatic’ bothers me as well.
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liquidsongbird
·So a different question… I purchased a very nice brick bracelet AND a nice 19mm band in anticipation of a nice C- which I purchased here (but US Customs had other ideas)… so my question is, where the heck can I find a nice C-case for my lonely bracelet & band??
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SOG53
·They pop up here often on private watch sales, also check the Watches for Sale here dealer thread.
Which reference do you want? Set up saved search on EB and Chrono. I prefer the fluted gold bezel ones with date only. But I own others too have a weakness for C case. What bracelet and endlinks did you buy?
Which reference do you want? Set up saved search on EB and Chrono. I prefer the fluted gold bezel ones with date only. But I own others too have a weakness for C case. What bracelet and endlinks did you buy?
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