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Oku
·Could also be that the hands are rusted and therefore someone decided to paint them.
SAS Gold Polerouter - Tore Nilert
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Tony C.
··Ωf Jury memberCould also be that the hands are rusted and therefore someone decided to paint them.
I once found one like this in - of all brands - an Audemars Piguet.
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PHPHD
·My 2 cents:
- if this was an intentional fake, it was likely not done for profit-driven/commercial reasons. It’s hard to imagine the engraving on the dial to be done by hand. That means you needed to build the necessary apparatus to do it. The only way that’s profitable is if you create many of these dials (think the Universal Gene-ve Australian fakes, typical Rolex fakes). Given the relatively obscure nature of these watches and generally lack of demand for these specific watches, that seems unlikely. Of course, there certainly could be a stash of these dials out there, just waiting to be put into cases... but we’ve not seen any signs of that. Not to say this can’t be a project by someone for fun, but given the lack of evidence pointing to many of these dials being made, I can’t think that this was a commercial decision.
- the inscription is also highly specific to one person, and I believe it’s probably relatively difficult to reverse-generate his name (that is, it’s not difficult to google T. H. Nilert and figure out he’s a SAS employee, but it’s probably really hard to google SAS ex-employees and come up with T H Nilert).
This just doesn’t scream profitable to me - and while it’s certainly possible it was a fake done just for fun, it’s difficult to see any commercial incentive in doing it.
- if this was an intentional fake, it was likely not done for profit-driven/commercial reasons. It’s hard to imagine the engraving on the dial to be done by hand. That means you needed to build the necessary apparatus to do it. The only way that’s profitable is if you create many of these dials (think the Universal Gene-ve Australian fakes, typical Rolex fakes). Given the relatively obscure nature of these watches and generally lack of demand for these specific watches, that seems unlikely. Of course, there certainly could be a stash of these dials out there, just waiting to be put into cases... but we’ve not seen any signs of that. Not to say this can’t be a project by someone for fun, but given the lack of evidence pointing to many of these dials being made, I can’t think that this was a commercial decision.
- the inscription is also highly specific to one person, and I believe it’s probably relatively difficult to reverse-generate his name (that is, it’s not difficult to google T. H. Nilert and figure out he’s a SAS employee, but it’s probably really hard to google SAS ex-employees and come up with T H Nilert).
This just doesn’t scream profitable to me - and while it’s certainly possible it was a fake done just for fun, it’s difficult to see any commercial incentive in doing it.
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Diabolik
·My 2 cents:
- if this was an intentional fake, it was likely not done for profit-driven/commercial reasons. It’s hard to imagine the engraving on the dial to be done by hand. That means you needed to build the necessary apparatus to do it. The only way that’s profitable is if you create many of these dials (think the Universal Gene-ve Australian fakes, typical Rolex fakes). Given the relatively obscure nature of these watches and generally lack of demand for these specific watches, that seems unlikely. Of course, there certainly could be a stash of these dials out there, just waiting to be put into cases... but we’ve not seen any signs of that. Not to say this can’t be a project by someone for fun, but given the lack of evidence pointing to many of these dials being made, I can’t think that this was a commercial decision.
- the inscription is also highly specific to one person, and I believe it’s probably relatively difficult to reverse-generate his name (that is, it’s not difficult to google T. H. Nilert and figure out he’s a SAS employee, but it’s probably really hard to google SAS ex-employees and come up with T H Nilert).
This just doesn’t scream profitable to me - and while it’s certainly possible it was a fake done just for fun, it’s difficult to see any commercial incentive in doing it.
It is certainly something that has not been inscribed by hand and I don't think anyone is proposing that it is. However, other methods of producing very credible results such as lase or cnc machining could have been used.
It is very easy to take and image, create a CNC file to cut or machine the image on any material. Here is an article on it ...
https://www.scan2cad.com/tips/how-to-convert-an-image-for-cnc/
Such capabilities are not beyond the ability of the many fraudsters trying to make a buck or two.
The problem is that is difficult to retain the level of resolution that you had in the original images due to many factors including the ability and quality of the CNC machine that is being used to engrave. Cheap CNC machines are available from China. Standard of engraving varies so it is possible to set up a decent engraving capability with limited finances. However, the quality will never be what you would get from a precision instrument ...
Edited:
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PHPHD
·It is very easy to take and image, create a CNC file to cut or machine the image on any material. Here is an article on it ...
https://www.scan2cad.com/tips/how-to-convert-an-image-for-cnc/
The problem is that is difficult to retain the level of resolution that you had in the original images due to many factors including the ability and quality of the CNC machine that is being used to engrave. Cheap CNC machines are available from China. Standard of engraving varies so it is possible to set up a decent engraving capability with limited finances. However, the quality will never be what you would get from a precision instrument ...
Oh I completely agree it’s easy to etch/ engrave something - but in this case you need to come up with the design in CAD, do it on a vintage watch dial which had the right amount of space on the dial for the design, and above all we’re talking about 2017 here. All of these, if done, maybe would have been done ~20 years ago (If the OP is right), without the cheaply available Chinese machines or easily accessible design technologies.
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Diabolik
·Oh I completely agree it’s easy to etch/ engrave something - but in this case you need to come up with the design in CAD, do it on a vintage watch dial which had the right amount of space on the dial for the design, and above all we’re talking about 2017 here. All of these, if done, maybe would have been done ~20 years ago (If the OP is right), without the cheaply available Chinese machines or easily accessible design technologies.
Copy image, turn it to "back and white" , generate DXF code. There are apps that will do that. It would take around 10 mins. All you need is a CNC machine and a couple of trial runs before you go live ...
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Mazoue
·I'm not an expert in this area at all but it strikes me that technology and the availability of this technology has improved/increased dramatically in very recent years. I'm not sure that we would have been talking about "apps" even 5 years ago and certainly not 10 or more years ago. If the seller can provide some credibility to his story that he has had the watch for a long time then I think we can probably discount the use of modern technology to create the engraving. If we could even find the watchmaker who serviced the watch in 2012 and he could verify that the watch had this dial in 2012 then I think that greatly reduces the likelihood of it having been created using modern technology.
Of course, having created the SAS engraving, the fraudster would then still have had to produce the text in the lower half of the dial (where it is not usually seen) using an original UG cliche in order to recreate the standard UG typeface.
Of course, having created the SAS engraving, the fraudster would then still have had to produce the text in the lower half of the dial (where it is not usually seen) using an original UG cliche in order to recreate the standard UG typeface.
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Oku
·It is certainly something that has not been inscribed by hand and I don't think anyone is proposing that it is.
The engraving on @Mazoue 's dial is certainly also done by hand. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many imperfections if it had been done by CNC. Look at the horizontal lines that are not straight.
Two engraving videos for illustration:
Unlikely. The most common reason, I believe, was that the owner found it much easier to read the time with darkened hands.
I once found one like this in - of all brands - an Audemars Piguet.
But I have seen several others. Mostly, the seconds hand was painted because it couldn't be restored and re-gilded due to rust.
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Mazoue
·The seller is unfortunately unable to help much. He uses e-mail infrequently and cannot speak any english. During our only phone call, his son translated (embarrassingly, my french is as good as his english). He responded to my enquiry about the service to say:
"je ne vais pas pouvoir vous aider je sais qu'il la mettait uniquement pour les grandes occasions, et aimait les objets de valeur, il voyagait assez souvent, pour les mains noire je ne sais pas de quoi vous voulez parler,pour la révision je ne sais pas non plus. Désolé. Il m'avait dit que cette montre avait de la valeur."
Which google translates as:
"I'm not going to be able to help you I know he put it only for special occasions, and liked valuables, he traveled quite often, for black hands I do not know what you want to talk about, for the revision I do not know either. Sorry. He told me that this watch was valuable."
"je ne vais pas pouvoir vous aider je sais qu'il la mettait uniquement pour les grandes occasions, et aimait les objets de valeur, il voyagait assez souvent, pour les mains noire je ne sais pas de quoi vous voulez parler,pour la révision je ne sais pas non plus. Désolé. Il m'avait dit que cette montre avait de la valeur."
Which google translates as:
"I'm not going to be able to help you I know he put it only for special occasions, and liked valuables, he traveled quite often, for black hands I do not know what you want to talk about, for the revision I do not know either. Sorry. He told me that this watch was valuable."
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Fost
·If you want more info just shoot me a pm about what you really want to discuss with him and his phone number. I can call him for you
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Mazoue
·That's very kind but I think the son has been left a watch by his recently deceased father about which he genuinely knows very little, other than he had owned the watch for a long time, wore it only on special occasions and had been told that it was valuable. I don't think the language barrier is really the issue, it's just that he doesn't know anything more about it.
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Diabolik
·Yes I understand. However, imperfections can also be introduced by converting an image to a DXF file and "backlash" or "play" when CNC head moves in one direction and then the other (so lines are not perfect and in some cases doubled up) would give those sort of imperfections. A bigger head would do the same ...
I have used a CNC to make parts and always found that very small parts or engraving needs to be carefully planned ... For really high quality work it is best to use laser.
I am not sure what technique was used to engrave that logo and it may look nice from a distance. However, it does not look like a Universal Geneve produced dial and likely to have undergone further work from its original state. I believe the old style applied U may also be an addition to the original dial.
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Mazoue
·As I've mentioned previously, I think the inconsistencies relating to the dates are the biggest puzzle to me.
The serial number on the case is consistent with the applied u, as shown in the image of the Polerouter Date with case reference 169101/01 with the crocodile strap that I posted earlier in this thread. The serial number of that watch is very close to mine. The Universal Geneve text is later yet the inscription appears to be earlier.
My working theory, however unlikely, is that the watch was awarded to Mr Nilert towards the end of the 1960s or even when he retired in 1970. An earlier case and matching blank dial was obtained from UG. The dial was engraved and the text added. The only thing this doesn't explain is why the inscription appears to relate to an earlier period.
We may never know. I've reached out to the family and will report back if they are willing and able to help.
The serial number on the case is consistent with the applied u, as shown in the image of the Polerouter Date with case reference 169101/01 with the crocodile strap that I posted earlier in this thread. The serial number of that watch is very close to mine. The Universal Geneve text is later yet the inscription appears to be earlier.
My working theory, however unlikely, is that the watch was awarded to Mr Nilert towards the end of the 1960s or even when he retired in 1970. An earlier case and matching blank dial was obtained from UG. The dial was engraved and the text added. The only thing this doesn't explain is why the inscription appears to relate to an earlier period.
We may never know. I've reached out to the family and will report back if they are willing and able to help.
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Mazoue
·The Nilert family were extremely kind and helpful but unfortunately the children couldn't remember the watch.
Ironically, Tore Nilert apparently didn't like expensive watches. He always wore a cheap watch back to front.
I have received various opinions on the watch and the engraved dial and I am left with no doubt that the dial engraving is a genuine period engraving. Unfortunately we may never know if, when or why the watch was awarded to Tore Nilert.
Ironically, Tore Nilert apparently didn't like expensive watches. He always wore a cheap watch back to front.
I have received various opinions on the watch and the engraved dial and I am left with no doubt that the dial engraving is a genuine period engraving. Unfortunately we may never know if, when or why the watch was awarded to Tore Nilert.
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MMMD
·A scoche off-topic, but I thought the thread participants might enjoy this SAS photo (Bodö Airport, Norway, 1968) touting the brevity of the polar route.
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Mazoue
·And here's a photo of Tore Nilert kindly provided by the family, with his watch back to front, presumably taken after he had left SAS and joined Olympic Airways in 1971.
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Vitezi
·The newspaper Vestkusten (the West Coast) was published between 1887 and 2007 in San Francisco California. It represented the growing Swedish American community in northern California and became the leading Swedish language newspaper in that state. (Source)
On May 21 1970 the paper published a short article on Tore Nilert. Someone who knows their Swedish can probably do better than Google Translate:
Tore Nilert moves to Stockholm
Has represented SAS in America in 29 years
Tore Nilert, president of Scandinavian Airlines System, Inc. in North America, has been appointed Vice President at SAS's main office in Stockholm on May 1, with the task of being a special adviser to Acting Director Knud Hagerup. Nilert has been in America since 1941 and has been linked to SAS since its inception in 1946 as its manager. During this time, the airline grew to from 880 passengers to 180,000 in 1969. The first year's sales were $ 251,000, 1969 $ 62 million.
Is he holding your watch in the picture below? 😗
On May 21 1970 the paper published a short article on Tore Nilert. Someone who knows their Swedish can probably do better than Google Translate:
Tore Nilert moves to Stockholm
Has represented SAS in America in 29 years
Tore Nilert, president of Scandinavian Airlines System, Inc. in North America, has been appointed Vice President at SAS's main office in Stockholm on May 1, with the task of being a special adviser to Acting Director Knud Hagerup. Nilert has been in America since 1941 and has been linked to SAS since its inception in 1946 as its manager. During this time, the airline grew to from 880 passengers to 180,000 in 1969. The first year's sales were $ 251,000, 1969 $ 62 million.
Is he holding your watch in the picture below? 😗
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Vitezi
·Another picture of interest:
Description: SAS DC-4, Inaugural of route New York - Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, from left: Famous American radio commentator H.V. Kaltenborn and , North America SAS´s President Mr. Tore Nilert.
Date: September 1946
Source: By SAS Scandinavian Airlines (http://images.flysas.com) [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons
Description: SAS DC-4, Inaugural of route New York - Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, from left: Famous American radio commentator H.V. Kaltenborn and , North America SAS´s President Mr. Tore Nilert.
Date: September 1946
Source: By SAS Scandinavian Airlines (http://images.flysas.com) [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons
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Mazoue
·Thanks very much for taking the time to research. As much as I would love that to be my watch, I am fairly sure it is not. This is a photo of Nilert that was used by newspapers throughout the 1960s. I believe that the item in the box is the Order of St Olav, which he was awarded back in 1960. Here is a photo of Nilert receiving the order from Princess Astrid in June 1960.
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=VEST19600609.2.14
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Oku
·It is the same photo! Look at the box and the fingers of Princess Astrid.
When did he leave SAS in 1971? In March?
When did he leave SAS in 1971? In March?
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