Purchase advice on Speedmaster MarkII 145.014

OMEGuy · Jan 12, 2020

new_heuer
This looks to have been refinished

Tet
I would say that one had almost certainly been refurbished. Look at the lugs on the middle pic, the metal is quite thin there between the top corner of the lug gap and upper slope, certainly much more so than original untouched..

It's been professionally done though and does look great. I just don't think it should be used as a reference for unpolished.

Well, I don't have a proof that this watch has not been refurbished and I don't have any further pics that would help to show this.

But at least you have to admit that, if the watch was refurbished, the person who did this job spent the time to re-apply the red factory seal to the caseback, which would be quite uncommon, true?

new_heuer · Jan 12, 2020

OMEGuy
Well, I don't have a proof that this watch has not been refurbished and I don't have any further pics that would help to show this.

But at least you have to admit that, if the watch was refurbished, the person who did this job spent the time to re-apply the red factory seal to the caseback, which would be quite uncommon, true?

The factory red seal is a tiny red dot and I'm not even sure if this was used in the late 1960's/70's. You can see damage to the case back from being opened anyway.

OMEGuy · Jan 12, 2020

The "tiny red dot" was used until the 1980's.

Which damage to the caseback do you mean?

new_heuer · Jan 12, 2020

OMEGuy
The "tiny red dot" was used until the 1980's.

Which damage to the caseback do you mean?

I believe the dot was still in use even 10 years ago. The dot should be very small not a huge splodge like on your example. It look like a dealer prepared watch where they have claimed its NOS. Is it your watch?

padders · Jan 12, 2020

Much as a I like that watch, which is clearly either in very good original condition or has been professionally refurbed, the red splodge isn't a reliable indicator unfortunately and the pic above does indeed suggest the back has been off at some point (or is a remnant of a refurb of earlier damage), though any dealer would likely remove the back to check the movement so its not a disaster even if it has. Some suggest the thickness of metal above the lug junction is an indicator of originality. Yours has very little but then my Mk2 is also thin there and doesn't look to have been refurbished as it is pretty worn with a faded original sunburst pattern and sharp bevel so I am not sure I buy into that theory. The red dot was still in use in the 2000s by the way, the earlier watches pre the 1990s used wax, the later watches model paint, that looks like model paint to me so could well have been dealer applied.

In short I am not calling out your watch one way or the other but I wouldn't be so certain it hasn't had some work. I doubt that crystal is original.

Tet · Jan 12, 2020

OMEGuy
Well, I don't have a proof that this watch has not been refurbished and I don't have any further pics that would help to show this.

But at least you have to admit that, if the watch was refurbished, the person who did this job spent the time to re-apply the red factory seal to the caseback, which would be quite uncommon, true?

It's been beautifully done no question, in fact that's about the best MkII case refinish I've ever seen(the likes of STS while excellent tend to show non perfect concentric pattern to the lapping IMO). My only comment was the suggestion that is how an unpolished case looks like, I'm pretty confident that has had some metal removed.

Here's a comparison with my own which has never been refinished(I bought it from the original owner), note the lug top corner not only the thickness to the between that and the top curve of the case, but it's position to the polished flank(top edge of the polished flank on yours is pretty much level or slightly below the top corner of the lug gap if you notice and look how much thicker mine is at the corner). You can see quite a clear difference here IMO.

Sorry I couldn't take a sharper pic, my phone does struggle with makro(and the Nokia 808 is getting on a bit).

Again this isn't intended as a criticism of your case, I would be more than happy to have mine done to that standard, I just think people should have a truer example how an unpolished case really looks. Hope it helps someone.

Regarding the OP's watch in question, I think provided you'd have money left over to allow for a service with a company such as STS in the UK then you would end with a nice example as case polish and apparent lack of service aside it looks nice overall with a good dial, handset, bracelet etc. Could probably do better though if you're patient.

[EDIT]The crystal looks like it's a third party replacement also looking at the print, think I'd leave that one personally.

OMEGuy · Jan 12, 2020

Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion that has developed here. 👍

I originally just wanted to give the OP a clue as to what a Mark II case should look like and I am far from deriving a claim to the correctness of my opinion.

But I thought I could add a few more photos. The watch shown first in my post above does not belong to me, but the following pictures are from my own watches or cases.

May the watches be refurbished or not (apparently everyone has their own opinion on this), the images may still serve as a guide for what a 145.014 looked like from the factory. Well, needless to say I believe there has been no refurbisment here...

Let's start with a NOS case (please note the "defects" at the notches and the thickness of the case at the lugs):

Then a Mk II Racing I bought from the first owner many years ago, who said he had bought it new and only worn a few times:

Finally this one, decimeter scaled crystal and 1159 bracelet (note the red seal as well):

Have a great weekend! 😀

simonsays · Jan 12, 2020

The discussion in this thread does not mention which cases are being compared, there are 2 different MK II cases, 145.014 and 145.034 and there may well be subtle differences. You could be comparing different cases.

I also would not be surprised to see different tolerances for the same cases in different manufacturing batches.

Tet · Jan 12, 2020

simonsays
The discussion in this thread does not mention which cases are being compared, there are 2 different MK II cases, 145.014 and 145.034 and there may well be subtle differences. You could be comparing different cases.

I also would not be surprised to see different tolerances for the same cases in different manufacturing batches.

Very fair point.

I probably should add mine is from '69. Can look up the case number next week and will edit it to this reply for prosperity. I have the exhibition back fitted currently and don't have the original with me.

@OMEGuy in light of the above comment I'll be the first to admit I may be wrong so apologies if that's the case. You certainly have some absolutely beautiful MKIIs there! Wow.

padders · Jan 12, 2020

simonsays
The discussion in this thread does not mention which cases are being compared, there are 2 different MK II cases, 145.014 and 145.034 and there may well be subtle differences. You could be comparing different cases.

I also would not be surprised to see different tolerances for the same cases in different manufacturing batches.

Totally. As I already mentioned above I too share misgivings over the theory that a thin margin above where the lug passes the edge of the strap slot is a sure sign of refinishing. In some cases it may suggest this, in others it could just be natural variation as is seen in many Omega products.

Tet · Jan 12, 2020

padders
Totally. As I already mentioned above I too share misgivings over the theory that a thin margin above where the lug passes the edge of the strap slot is a sure sign of refinishing. In some cases it may suggest this, in others it could just be natural variation as is seen in many Omega products.

One thing's for sure it's very interesting to read these points and discussion, there is always so much to learn and getting past theories like this is super valuable info.

Archer · Jan 12, 2020

OMEGuy
The "tiny red dot" was used until the 1980's.

Which damage to the caseback do you mean?

Going from memory the red dot (and blue service dot) was discontinued on June 1, 2015...

Archer · Jan 12, 2020

Tet
I would say that one had almost certainly been refurbished. Look at the lugs on the middle pic, the metal is quite thin there between the top corner of the lug gap and upper slope, certainly much more so than original untouched..

It's been professionally done though and does look great. I just don't think it should be used as a reference for unpolished.

100%

OMEGuy · Jan 12, 2020

Archer
Going from memory the red dot (and blue service dot) was discontinued on June 1, 2015...

Thank you for letting me know, even the exact date... 👍

As @padders stated above, the red dot was used up to the 2000's.

I didn't know that.

SwissMe · Jan 12, 2020

Mine is refinished, but from my point of view, excelent done:

Not a show stopper for me 😉

Archer · Jan 12, 2020

SwissMe
Mine is refinished, but from my point of view, excelent done:

Not a show stopper for me 😉

Yours has some material left to work with. The issue for me with the cases that have little material left, if they are original or not doesn’t matter, but you have to go into buying one of these knowing that you essentially have no material left to work with if you ever want to get it refinished.

SwissMe · Jan 12, 2020

Total agree, in my case I think one more rework would be possible

Tet · Jan 12, 2020

Archer
100%

That's very interesting coming from somebody with such experience as yourself. Do you have anything to further contribute on the reply from @simonsays above(the two different case references and possible different manufacture standards in various regions)?

Would be very useful to have your input as this is obviously a subject that comes up often worth potential buyers.

Tet · Jan 12, 2020

SwissMe
Mine is refinished, but from my point of view, excelent done:

Not a show stopper for me 😉

That's beautifully done, who worked on the case? I'm always on the fence about getting mine done, STS would be the easiest choice for me but from pics of past work I've found it often appears that the angle of the lapping lines isn't quite perfect all around the case and the left lower side for instance they are more downward angle than the right (of course it could be a camera trick giving a false illusion, I've not seen an STS MKII refurb in person).

I really rate highly the case work of STS, they've worked absolute magic on a couple of mine, but I'm not quite sure about the MKII.

SwissMe · Jan 12, 2020

@Tet I bought it from an astrian watchmaker, near vienna. Since then he is the only who is allowed to touch my watches 😀

Purchase advice on Speedmaster MarkII 145.014

OMEGuy

new_heuer

OMEGuy

new_heuer

padders

Tet

OMEGuy

simonsays

Tet

padders

Tet

Archer

Archer

OMEGuy

SwissMe

Archer

SwissMe

Tet

Tet

SwissMe

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STUNNING OMEGA SPEEDMASTER MARKII 145.014 with RACING DIAL