Omega Holy Grail ref. 3760822 hands set

pitpro

As I said earlier, foisting incorrect information
can cause serious damage to other collectors.
I hope no one changed their bezel to the wrong one.
You damaged the value of my watch and anyone
else that has a b4 bezel on their Grail, until this
Moonwatch Only information surfaced, and I
don't appreciate it.

TsoloT

Maybe now the museum and the Moonwatch only team will get round to apologising to Andy at cal 1040 who did fantastic research in disproving the production numbers quoted in Moonwatch for the Speedmaster 125...they have been ignoring him for long enough

Their 2000 unnumbered limited edition quote is completely wrong as Andy so eloquently proves ...maybe the Omega records aren’t as accurate as they claim ?

And after that they can correct the production numbers for the caliber 1510 1511 1516 which are also wrong

kov

However I would have preferred to see collaboration of different people researching on the same topic instead of a cross-fire, I still believe that we are all grown ups and have to do our own homework before affirming something based on what whoever said or wrote.

RIP Marco Richon did a tremendous work and heavily contributed to Omega's heritage with his work, work which has been demonstrated partially incorrect by further research years later, based on new aggregated information. Nobody can be sure the the state of the knowledge on this particular topic as per today, won't change in the future.

I want simply to say THANK YOU to all the guys who spend from their precious time to research and who share the results of their research with the community, free of charge.

On us to ponder what we are going to affirm or how we're going to act after reading any information on the web or in the books.

TsoloT

Interesting piece of research ......Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.......it is conceded by the writers that they have never seen a post Feb 1988 watch with a b2 bezel and according to them there are as many b2 as b4 ....in fact there are 3 Watches I know of that have B2 bezels after Feb 1988 and I am sure there are members of the forum who know of more and any analysis of all the available images show there are at least 70 % of them with B2 bezels ...

So sorry that the value of your watch has been damaged next time get one with a b2 to be sure

TsoloT

any analysis of all the available images show there are at least 70 % of them with B2 bezels ...

speedy4ever

Well to be more precise, last delivery was 22 November 1988 (not July) as detailed in the text and the table, which corresponds to 9 months. But this method would be accurate only if production was regular and linear during the 21 months of production.

We, the pair of "researchers", have more detailed figures:

- about 1100 were delivered before 19 February 1988 (date of the first observed B4 bezel)
- 200 are steel and gold with another type of bezel, all probably after February 1988

This means that there should be approximately 2000 - 1100 - 200 = about 700 with B4 bezel, meaning approx. 39% of the 1800 steel HG production.

Keep in mind that the aim of our bezel table with delivery date was not to fix a undisputed date for the bezel change, the idea was to prove that the B4 bezel cannot be just a service bezel, but was really originally fitted:

- 0 out of 20 with B4 observed until Feb.1988
- 21 out of 21with B4 observed from Feb.1988

Such a distinction cannot be explained by service.

Some claim there were B2 bezels on models produced AFTER Feb.1988. This is not impossible, you all know that a new part change rarely happens in one shot. On the other hand the claimed B2 post-Feb model is dated 26 May 1988, exactly the same date as that of 2 of our friends from the forum...with B4 bezel.

The more observations we get, the more accurate will be the results.

speedy4ever

Well to be more precise, last delivery was 22 November 1988 (not July) as detailed in the text and the table, which corresponds to 9 months. But this method would be accurate only if production was regular and linear during the 21 months of production.

We, the pair of "researchers", have more detailed figures:

- about 1100 were delivered before 19 February 1988 (date of the first observed B4 bezel)
- 200 are steel and gold with another type of bezel, all probably after February 1988

This means that there should be approximately 2000 - 1100 - 200 = about 700 with B4 bezel, meaning approx. 39% of the 1800 steel HG production.

Keep in mind that the aim of our bezel table with delivery date was not to fix a undisputed date for the bezel change, the idea was to prove that the B4 bezel cannot be just a service bezel, but was really originally fitted:

- 0 out of 20 with B4 observed until Feb.1988
- 21 out of 21with B4 observed from Feb.1988

Such a distinction cannot be explained by service.

Some claim there were B2 bezels on models produced AFTER Feb.1988. This is not impossible, you all know that a new part change rarely happens in one shot. On the other hand the claimed B2 post-Feb model is dated 26 May 1988, exactly the same date as that of 2 of our friends from the forum...with B4 bezel.

The more observations we get, the more accurate will be the results.

S SPRITE

I am new to this but have been an observer on many sites before forum and I am long time collector and have owned and still own a grail or two and have friends who have few as well and we are all wondering based on the following

I read your blog and also the blog by TsoloT and he makes a number of interesting points


The first one is how come a number of your b2 watches are right at the end of production

Did they make the b2 then go b4 then at the end with the 48 233 8xx and 48 233 9 xx go back to the b2 again


The other is how did you get photos of the watches and surely these are not photos when watches leave the factory

and we have all seen lots of b4 bezels but mostly with service hands ...until recently all the watches on chrono 24 were this configuration but no one has seen a b2 with a service hand set couldn't find one on the net either

And finally where is the production sheet for this bezel change ?

And why if there were only 39% b4 why does your table show a 50% 50% split with some post 1988 watches in the first batch
Thanks for the space to ask these questions but as helpful as your research is its caused a few people to ask more questions than have been answered which suppose is a good thing

S SPRITE

I am new to this but have been an observer on many sites before forum and I am long time collector and have owned and still own a grail or two and have friends who have few as well and we are all wondering based on the following

S SPRITE

I read your blog and also the blog by TsoloT and he makes a number of interesting points


The first one is how come a number of your b2 watches are right at the end of production

Did they make the b2 then go b4 then at the end with the 48 233 8xx and 48 233 9 xx go back to the b2 again

S SPRITE

The other is how did you get photos of the watches and surely these are not photos when watches leave the factory

S SPRITE

and we have all seen lots of b4 bezels but mostly with service hands ...until recently all the watches on chrono 24 were this configuration but no one has seen a b2 with a service hand set couldn't find one on the net either

S SPRITE

And why if there were only 39% b4 why does your table show a 50% 50% split with some post 1988 watches in the first batch

S SPRITE

...but no one has seen a b2 with a service hand set couldn't find one on the net either

S [B]SPRITE[/B]

And finally where is the production sheet for this bezel change ?

[B]TsoloT[/B]

.maybe the Omega records aren’t as accurate as they claim ?

[B]TsoloT[/B]

So apart from that Mrs Lincoln how did you enjoy the play ?

[B]TsoloT[/B]

...repeated where did the other 300 come from ?....
...watch photos on the net ?
...Where is your bench mark reference watch ?

TsoloT

Excellent observation Kov and just to show willing I posted a comment on the Moonwatch site ..doubt they will reproduce it ...I even reached out to them during my research but they didn’t bother to respond
And just to help them out they claim they never saw a post Feb 1988 watch with the B2 bezel HERE IS ONE PRODUCED IN MAY 1988 WITH THE EXTRACT .....I have 2 more one in September sent to Singapore right at the end of the 1988 production in September and one that went to Sweden in April 1988. Both have B2 bezels now according to the records and the French researchers this isn’t supposed to happen