OMEGA Apollo-Soyuz: The hidden truths

[Davidt]

I'm not talking about someone buying a watch new in the 70's, but a collector buying one now. Without an omega extract or a numbered caseback, how is a collector to be sure than a "Pre Apollo Soyuz" is s genuine example, made by DM and not something put together by an unscrupulous dealer last week?

Unless I'm missing something, it sounds like they can't be sure if this, and this is the problem with the Pre AS.

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

Davidt

I'm not talking about someone buying a watch new in the 70's, but a collector buying one now. Without an omega extract or a numbered caseback, how is a collector to be sure than a "Pre Apollo Soyuz" is s genuine example, made by DM and not something put together by an unscrupulous dealer last week?

Unless I'm missing something, it sounds like they can't be sure if this, and this is the problem with the Pre AS.

Should a watch collector come across a Pre-Apollo watch, Soyuz must check if it has the following characteristics:

-A movement between a range of 31.316.xxx and 32.859.6xx

- a A-S caseback with the lunar module and the progressive number engraving

- the classic Dial with the symbol A-S

- the bracelet 1168

- 5 or 5.5mm buttons

- the end-pieces of the bracelet are numbered 633

- Indices long as in the dials with logo applied with 321

The box is made of transparent plastic with red velvet and the words Geneve maybe it would be too much ... but this is his!

I add a rather important detail; in all these years of research, do you know how many parts of Apollo Soyuz I found?

- 2 pcs bracelets
- 1 box
- 1 quadrant

The ways of the God are endless but I challenge any master watchmaker to assemble an Apollo-Soyuz watch with these few spare parts.

Everyone knows that in Rolex watches they easily engrave such as "Cartier", "Tiffany" or the famous "T" but this is not the case, here the question is much more complex

The PRE-Apollo-Soyuz watches exist, they are a reality, I can not give you the proof that the Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz are a prototype of the Demarchi-Omega or whatever but in my humble opinion today that collector can easily recognize which of the three A-S in his hands.

 

[TRIPLEP]

can someone put a picture of the endowment that the Apollo Soyuz carried at the time? box, manuals, type of warranty, etc ...

 

[Davidt]

You do realise the serial range 31,3xx xxx to 32,8xx xxx is extremely broad and includes a huge number of readily available early 70's Speedmasters?

So to clarify, if someone has an early 70's standard Speedmaster, they just need a case back and dial? I say "just", I appreciate it's not easy to source but if someone came across a stash of these, they could knock out a few 'Pre A S'?

Unless someone already has.

I certainly don't mean to constantly argue with you, but you are failing to address these concerns.

 

[Foo2rama]

I wonder when the logo for the mission was released and if it post dates the pre mission watches. 😀

 

[lowen]

@Apollo-Soyuz

I had decided not to write anymore on this topic.
Just because there is no discussion, and because it is useless.

But I would like to insist on one thing. Just one. For those who are reading this topic and could be influenced by so many confused information:

Stop talking about Pre-Apollo Soyuz. Stop it. This is ab-so-lu-te-ly ridiculous.

The rule should be, for serious people, that someone must have serious and certified proofs before introducing such concepts. Otherwise, it has no sense. Full stop.

You have your ideas, your convinctions, your problems, your watches, your life. Ok. That's fine. You can write whatever you want about your thoughts.

But please, do not introduce concepts that are very dangerous for readers who are not experts and are looking for serious information on the forums.

Edited: Dec 20, 2017

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

Foo2rama

I wonder when the logo for the mission was released and if it post dates the pre mission watches. 😀

I had never thought about it

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

lowen

@Apollo-Soyuz

I had decided not to write anymore on this topic.
Just because there is no discussion, and because it is useless.

But I would like to insist on one thing. Just one. For those who are reading this topic and could be influenced by so many confused information:

Stop talking about Pre-Apollo Soyuz. Stop it. This is ab-so-lu-te-ly ridiculous.

The rule should be, for serious people, that someone must have serious and certified proofs before introducing such concepts. Otherwise, it has no sense. Full stop.

You have your ideas, your convinctions, your problems, your watches, your life. Ok. That's fine. You can write whatever you want about your thoughts.

But please, do not introduce concepts that are very dangerous for readers who are not experts and are looking for serious information on the forums.

Dear Mr Lowen,
Sorry but I do not understand ...

1) I was waiting for your phone call but this never came ...

2) You say that you no longer want to express yourself on this subject because you think it's time lost, but then you keep writing ...

Do you talk seriously about me?

It seems to me that the first to have not shown consistency in the speeches was just you ...

Apart from this ... now you order me not to speak and talk about omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz.

This seems excessive to me ...

I have the testimony of the Omega dealers who remember that the A-S were present in the stores during the space mission

I published a copy of the invoice of my watch shipped in June 1975 from Omega to the Maison Demarchi and bought in the same year

I have cataloged a small batch of OMEGA PRE-APOLLO-SOYUZ that I published in a previous post
Perhaps we did not understand each other but the documents I published are authentic and what I have affirmed up to now are the result of years of research.

maybe you wanted a statement signed by the new manager of the Bien Museum?

I'm sorry ... but I do not have it!

Good night

 

[lowen]

Apollo-Soyuz

1) I was waiting for your phone call but this never came ...

Why should I have called you, sorry?

Apollo-Soyuz

2) You say that you no longer want to express yourself on this subject because you think it's time lost, but then you keep writing ...

Just because I do not want to leave crazy information written here on this forum.

Apollo-Soyuz

I have the testimony of the Omega dealers who remember that the A-S were present in the stores during the space mission

Are you serious?
I also have the testimony of someone who saw Elvis Presley yesterday evening dining in a restaurant in Milan.

Apollo-Soyuz

I published a copy of the invoice of my watch shipped in June 1975 from Omega to the Maison Demarchi and bought in the same year.

Not correct, and not honest. That is crazy.
You have an invoice of 158 standard Speedmasters shipped to De Marchi. Nothing more.
Is it so difficult to read?

Apollo-Soyuz

I have cataloged a small batch of OMEGA PRE-APOLLO-SOYUZ that I published in a previous post.
Perhaps we did not understand each other but the documents I published are authentic and what I have affirmed up to now are the result of years of research.

Please, be serious.
You don't even have ONE document that demonstrates your assumptions.
Not even one.

Apollo-Soyuz

Maybe you wanted a statement signed by the new manager of the Bien Museum?
I'm sorry ... but I do not have it!

I don't understand the sense of this sentence.
But that's your choice.

Edited: Dec 20, 2017

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

lowen

Why should I have called you, sorry?

Because in this e-mail you sent me you told me that we would talk about APOLLO-SOYUZ at the end of November ... now we are at the end of December and I have not heard from you

I'm sorry that you do not remember this email ... you write me "let's talk about it willingly next week" or even doubt what you wrote ...



Just because I do not want to leave crazy information written here on this forum.

2) I think it's useful for you to decide whether to talk or keep quiet ..

Are you serious?
I also have the testimony of someone who saw Elvis Presley yesterday evening dining in a restaurant in Milan.

well ... now I understand who I'm talking to ...
thank you

Not correct, and not honest. That is crazy.
You have an invoice of 158 standard Speedmasters shipped to De Marchi. Nothing more.
Is it so difficult to read?

for the third time ... I enclose the invoice of my watch ... and publish the serial number ...




Please, be serious.
You don't even have ONE document that demonstrates your assumptions.
Not even one.

if for you the tests I shared with you are not worth anything I hope you can at least believe the dozens of customers who bought an Apollo-Soyuz watch in 1975 and that only in the 2000s they knew it was an OUT OF RANGE


I don't understand the sense of this sentence.
But that's your choice.

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

TRIPLEP

can someone put a picture of the endowment that the Apollo Soyuz carried at the time? box, manuals, type of warranty, etc ...

this is the complete endowment of a PRE-APOLLO-SOYUZ of a friend of BOLOGNA that among other things is the same as the official Apollo-Soyuz
No. 461 - serial 32.208xxx.

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

Davidt

You do realise the serial range 31,3xx xxx to 32,8xx xxx is extremely broad and includes a huge number of readily available early 70's Speedmasters?

So to clarify, if someone has an early 70's standard Speedmaster, they just need a case back and dial? I say "just", I appreciate it's not easy to source but if someone came across a stash of these, they could knock out a few 'Pre A S'?

Unless someone already has.

I certainly don't mean to constantly argue with you, but you are failing to address these concerns.

I agree with you 100% on this statement:

the range between 31.3xx xxx and 32.8xx xxx is very wide ... but ...

it is also true that to build a PRE-APOLLO-SOYUZ it is not enough to find a movement included in this range but it is essential to have much more as above mentioned (bracelet, dial, caseback, end, box, etc ...)

if a collector also finds an A-S caseback and then he is lucky enough to find a dial he would miss the rest anyway ... and if he wants to record a number on the ceseback, which one would he put?

You know that to date I have never seen caseback engraved with an identical serial number ... TODAY ...

we all know if we go forward with your reasoning ... we can question half of the Rolex 5517 ... but in this specific case I think we are going slightly off topic for the simple reason that I consider a very remote hypothesis that in the world can open a factory that starts producing spare parts for Apollo-Soyuz ...

for me the doubts are other:

• Why the sale of PRE-APOLLO-SOYUZ has anticipated that of the official Apollo-Soyuz
• Why there is no logical connection between the number recorded between caseback and internal movement
• Why the PRE-Apollo-Soyuz mounted movements ranging from 31.3xx xxx to 32.8xx xxx
• WhyOmega does not want to look for the truth

thank you

 

[lowen]

@Apollo-Soyuz

Perfect. Let's go on, it's Christmas time ...

YOU asked me to discuss about your problems by phone, and because I am always available for this kind of discussions, I answered that I may call you later. But it was BEFORE you started writing all these crazy things in this topic, and I clearly stated that I didn't want to discuss with you anymore.

By the way, before posting private messages, please ask me the authorization.

Regarding your invoice, again, it may be a kind of joke but ... do you need help to read French?

And then, just to be clear: you didn't share any test with me ... and you didn't share any serious / confirmed information here on this topic.

That's funny because it is exactly what the previous responsible of the Omega Museum (Brandon) said to you ... and you didn't even understand it!

I mean, we really don't have the same understanding of FACTS, or CERTIFIED RESEARCH, or VERIFIED INFORMATION ...

By the way, there is an Apollo-Soyuz dial for sale by an Italian dealer on Chrono24. Spare parts ... 😉

Edited: Dec 21, 2017

 

[davy26]

lowen

@Apollo-Soyuz

Perfect. Let's go on, it's Christmas time ...

YOU asked me to discuss about your problems by phone, and because I am always available for this kind of discussions, I answered that I may call you later. But it was BEFORE you started writing all these crazy things in this topic, and I clearly stated that I didn't want to discuss with you anymore.

By the way, before posting private messages, please ask me the authorization.

Regarding your invoice, again, it may be a kind of joke but ... do you need help to read French?

And then, just to be clear: you didn't share any test with me ... and you didn't share any serious / confirmed information here on this topic.

That's funny because it is exactly what the previous responsible of the Omega Museum (Brandon) said to you ... and you didn't even understand it!

I mean, we really don't have the same understanding of FACTS, or CERTIFIED RESEARCH, or VERIFIED INFORMATION ...

By the way, there is an Apollo-Soyuz dial for sale by an Italian dealer on Chrono24. Spare parts ... 😉

A while back I wrote that I thought our OP should respect your advices and that - as much for his own well-being - perhaps he should just put this behind him as nothing he contends is ever now going to be forensically verifiable.

But . . . the discourse does remain entertaining and appears to have a momentum of its own. There may be a movie in this! (But possibly one of those infuriatingly trendy ones which doesn't provide the viewer with an actual conclusion. It'd be a good one for David Lynch to direct).

 

[Spacefruit]

Apollo-Soyuz

this is the complete endowment of a PRE-APOLLO-SOYUZ of a friend of BOLOGNA that among other things is the same as the official Apollo-Soyuz
No. 461 - serial 32.208xxx.

Does this watch have the 5.5mm pushers?

 

[doctor steel]

Apollo-Soyuz

this is the complete endowment of a PRE-APOLLO-SOYUZ of a friend of BOLOGNA that among other things is the same as the official Apollo-Soyuz
No. 461 - serial 32.208xxx.

NO, perdonami ... questo è l' Apollo Soyuz acquistato personalmente da me e ancora nella mia collezione
Non è Un Pre A.S., non è un De Marchi A.S. ... ma un A.S. con seriali comunemente riconosciuti come giusti ( 39181061 ) ......
io non abito a Bologna
QUESTO orologio:
- è pubblicato sul libro " The Master of Omega " ( Alberto Isnardi )
- il suo fondello ( 132 ) è pubblicato sul libro " Speedmaster Apollo Soyuz the first " di Marco ( Mstanga )
- è già stato presentato in questo Forum da me
- è richiamato nel thread " Apollo Soyuz Register 1975 " da me

NO, forgive me ... this is the Apollo Soyuz personally bought by me and still in my collection
It isn't a Pre A.S., it isn't a De Marchi A.S. ... but it's an A.S. with serials commonly recognized as right (39181061) ......
I don't live in Bologna
THIS watch:
- it is published in the book " The Master of Omega " (Alberto Isnardi)
- its caseback (132) is published on the book "Speedmaster Apollo Soyuz the first" by Marco (Mstanga)
- it has already been presented in this Forum by me
- it is referred to in the thread " Apollo Soyuz Register 1975 " by me

Edited: Dec 21, 2017

 

[speedy4ever]

Just one question and one opinion in order to try to put things at the correct place:

1. Question
Mister Apollo-Soyuz wrote: 30/40 Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were presented to the Italian market in 1975.

Here are some movements belonging to the Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz cataloged by me:

31.316.xxx (mine!)
32.208.1xx
32.208.2xx
32.856.XXX
32.857.XXX
32.859.4XX
32.859.6xx

- you show us 7 s/n, how can you state it's 30/40?
- Do you know the caseback number of those YOU (and only YOU) call "pre-Apollo-Soyuz"? I guess you know at least yours. Because if they were produced in 1975, BEFORE the official production, why would one of them, 32.208.xxx bear the number I.461?

2. Opinion
As you know, we consider our book as a research book, meaning that information can be possibly updated and that we are not error-free although we are doing our best to write accurate information. And we are open to coherent discussions. Now in this situation, you try to impose your point of view as the real truth, and in 3 months, after you repeat it 100x the same, everyone will think this is indeed the real truth despite no proof of that. Several facts are against your story: 1. a caseback I.461 for an early unofficial model that was, according to YOU, a production of 30-40 models, 2. very difficult to imagine OMEGA launching a model for a (risky) mission that has not succeeded yet. Can you imagine a Moonwatch with the caseback engraved "The first watch worn on the Moon" produced before July 1969?
I do not claim this is 100% impossible, but with such a high level of uncertainty, please STOP making your thoughts as THE story.

 

[lowen]

🤦

@Apollo-Soyuz

Do I understand well? You posted a picture of @doctor steel 's watch saying that it was a DeMarchi A-S from a friend of yours ??????

😁

That was a very good idea, that illustrates pretty well your methodology.

Well done.

Edited: Dec 21, 2017

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

lowen

@Apollo-Soyuz

Perfect. Let's go on, it's Christmas time ...

YOU asked me to discuss about your problems by phone, and because I am always available for this kind of discussions, I answered that I may call you later. But it was BEFORE you started writing all these crazy things in this topic, and I clearly stated that I didn't want to discuss with you anymore.

By the way, before posting private messages, please ask me the authorization.

Regarding your invoice, again, it may be a kind of joke but ... do you need help to read French?

And then, just to be clear: you didn't share any test with me ... and you didn't share any serious / confirmed information here on this topic.

That's funny because it is exactly what the previous responsible of the Omega Museum (Brandon) said to you ... and you didn't even understand it!

I mean, we really don't have the same understanding of FACTS, or CERTIFIED RESEARCH, or VERIFIED INFORMATION ...

By the way, there is an Apollo-Soyuz dial for sale by an Italian dealer on Chrono24. Spare parts ... 😉

Mr. LOWEN,
from the moment you are a very nice person with a thousand talents, tell me if with that quadrant that he found on the web he will be able to build an Apollo-Soyuz watch.

I await news
Merry Christmas

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

doctor steel

NO, perdonami ... questo è l' Apollo Soyuz acquistato personalmente da me e ancora nella mia collezione
Non è Un Pre A.S., non è un De Marchi A.S. ... ma un A.S. con seriali comunemente riconosciuti come giusti ( 39181061 ) ......
io non abito a Bologna
QUESTO orologio:
- è pubblicato sul libro " The Master of Omega " ( Alberto Isnardi )
- il suo fondello ( 132 ) è pubblicato sul libro " Speedmaster Apollo Soyuz the first " di Marco ( Mstanga )
- è già stato presentato in questo Forum da me
- è richiamato nel thread " Apollo Soyuz Register 1975 " da me

NO, forgive me ... this is the Apollo Soyuz personally bought by me and still in my collection
It isn't a Pre A.S., it isn't a De Marchi A.S. ... but it's an A.S. with serials commonly recognized as right (39181061) ......
I don't live in Bologna
THIS watch:
- it is published in the book " The Master of Omega " (Alberto Isnardi)
- its caseback (132) is published on the book "Speedmaster Apollo Soyuz the first" by Marco (Mstanga)
- it has already been presented in this Forum by me
- it is referred to in the thread " Apollo Soyuz Register 1975 " by me

I confirm what I said No. 461 - serial 32.208xxx. maybe you know the person too; ALESSANDRO, on FORUM: ORIOLO
Do you if are more calm, can we call him on the phone?