OMEGA Apollo-Soyuz: The hidden truths

TsoloT

you have

TsoloT

If you have any doubts about the accuracy of the Omega record s in its relationships with subcontractors I suggest you visit our very learned colleague cal 1040 ‘s web site and review his very well explained empirical enquiry into the true production numbers of the speedmaster 125 a watch which not only had to pass muster in Omegas hands but also by way of independent cosc certifications

Received wisdom is 2000 limited no numbered issued ...reality.... as many as 18,000 produce with at least 2000 alphanumerically stamped !

My enquiries in respect of at least three other diverse but limited production models shows similarities of discrepancy
not properly explainable by anything other than mis directed misinformed chaos promulgated by poor record keeping

This is not a criticism of Omega as we are measuring history using today’s calibrations however it’s both right and proper that eminent forums such as this should be more able to accommodate a more epistemological approach and used more common sense and less dogma in the face of this sorry story

All the Watches produced are from Omega parts and they were either made at Omega’s factory or a place certified by Omega they ALL appear to be numbered sequentially !!

With production limited to 500 and apart from a random allocation of movement serial numbers which may have been allocated at production ,or movement swapped after service or merely made and not properly recorded, there is no other discussion that may be entertained

This attempt at apartheid is arrant nonsense particularly in view of the fact that the so called DiMarci 100 may infact be the rarer prototype for the 400 issued by Omega ...a situation with many precedents

Faz

Welcome and congrats on a very interesting post!

lwong

Some quality and entertaining discussion going on in this thread. But alas, a bit too much saltiness. These were my takeaways:

- MWO authors' account of the "official" or "recognised" 400 Apollo Soyuz models, within a specific serial range, rings true to me. I don't think we can discount the extensive efforts made by them to pour through and corroborate using actual historical Omega documents. And the snapshot of the extract for one of these 400, also supports the view.
- For the remaining pieces, I think we've moved beyond doubt that DeMarchi in Italy assembled an additional number of watches using parts exclusively given to them.
- As to how many watches were assembled by DeMarchi, maybe its 2-3, maybe its 10, maybe its 100, I don't think anyone has a document that establishes the figure beyond a reasonable doubt...
- People have differing views whether these DeMarchi pieces ought to be considered legit Omega watches, since there was apparently some sort of written agreement between Omega and DeMarchi concerning these. And even what this agreement between Omega and DeMarchi covers, is unlikely to be universally agreed upon by all participants in this thread - since folks are throwing around words like "assemble" and "modify", which are all open to interpretation.
- Bienne's archival system will not be able to identify the DeMarchi-assembled watches, since these were put together in Switzerland and apparently neither the DeMarchis nor their staff thought to inform HQ of the serials they were putting together. Personally I find this strange and it smells a bit dishonest to me - when considering that even if the DeMarchis were assembling fresh watches via a "liberal" interpretation of their agreement with Omega, they had to have known that the "original" 400 exhibited a specific configuration rendering them unique (presentation box, serial, caseback numbering, etc.) as opposed to these fresh and unmarked watches they were selling to unknowing customers.

At the end of the day, if you're buying an Apollo Soyuz piece and it exists sans stamped caseback, or is outside the "recognised"/"official" serial range - chances are these were not "factory products" from Omega HQ, but were assembled either by DeMarchi, or else by someone looking to make a quick buck off a franken. Whether that makes it more or less desirable, cheaper vs more expensive - entirely up to that person's narrative based on his/her piecing together these events, facts, views, speculations.

My personal view - I don't see the DeMarchi pieces as originals and like spacefruit, would rather save my scratch for something with all the "official" hallmarks.

Davidt

Fuerthermore, is there any evidence that DM had 100 case backs, boxes, dials etc? Perhaps they had 46 case backs, 34 dials, 14 boxes and 178 bracelets? No one has confirmed 100 DM(?) examples.

Foo2rama

The question is prove it’s one of the 100 and not pieced together later. Something you have refused to address.

Foo2rama

Let’s assume there are 100 watches made by Demarchi. How can you prove it’s real and not made by someone else from parts?

This is basically the whole problem, which people keep pointing out and you have not addressed

Foo2rama

So either you did not understand what I said or are ignoring the question again.

Davidt

So how do you know your watch is a "pre apollo Soyuz" and not just a standard '71 Speedmaster that some one modded?

Apollo-Soyuz

who changed what?
here we do not talk about one particular or another. The AS are completely different from the Speedmasters, the case is different, so as to accommodate the larger buttons, then on the dial there is only the red and blue circular symbol at 12 o'clock (and replace the usual writings that are seen on the other models), bracelet and caseback are unique.
Who could have had so many accessories available to turn Speedmaster into A-S?
for what???
it is very important not to forget that at that time Italian customers preferred to buy a traditional Moonwatch instead of an Apollo-Soyuz. In my humble opinion, if anybody wanted to modify the watches, he would have had to choose a model of watch that was in great demand by the market, and not this one that did not interest anyone until the 1990s.

dennisthemenace

Can anyone here confirm that the Omega assembled AS's had larger pushers and a modified case to accommodate them?

MaiLollo

It is a '71 that was changed with A/S parts. The question is who did so. If you bought the watch as is in the seventies it was probably done by De Marchi. For the other watches out of the 39m serial, it's hard to know...

Apollo-Soyuz

all the Apollo-Soyuz watches of 1975 have in common the fact of having a movement that belonged (according to OMEGA CH) to a production dedicated to Speedmasters.

BenBagbag

Also please address your claim that Apollo-Suyoz have different pushers and cases to begin with