OMEGA Apollo-Soyuz: The hidden truths

[Apollo-Soyuz]

TsoloT

you have

TsoloT

If you have any doubts about the accuracy of the Omega record s in its relationships with subcontractors I suggest you visit our very learned colleague cal 1040 ‘s web site and review his very well explained empirical enquiry into the true production numbers of the speedmaster 125 a watch which not only had to pass muster in Omegas hands but also by way of independent cosc certifications

Received wisdom is 2000 limited no numbered issued ...reality.... as many as 18,000 produce with at least 2000 alphanumerically stamped !

My enquiries in respect of at least three other diverse but limited production models shows similarities of discrepancy
not properly explainable by anything other than mis directed misinformed chaos promulgated by poor record keeping

This is not a criticism of Omega as we are measuring history using today’s calibrations however it’s both right and proper that eminent forums such as this should be more able to accommodate a more epistemological approach and used more common sense and less dogma in the face of this sorry story

All the Watches produced are from Omega parts and they were either made at Omega’s factory or a place certified by Omega they ALL appear to be numbered sequentially !!

With production limited to 500 and apart from a random allocation of movement serial numbers which may have been allocated at production ,or movement swapped after service or merely made and not properly recorded, there is no other discussion that may be entertained

This attempt at apartheid is arrant nonsense particularly in view of the fact that the so called DiMarci 100 may infact be the rarer prototype for the 400 issued by Omega ...a situation with many precedents

I'm sorry but the only thing that I find absurd, is certainly not to try to find the truth but rather the constant invitation to accept that more than that you can not go ...
maybe not everyone agrees about my reconstruction of the facts, but one thing is certain; I've never talked about a 100 pieces production of Apollo Soyuz.

I reply by copying what I had written in my previous comment

" Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were made and marketed during the eponymous space mission.

30/40 Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were presented to the Italian market in 1975.

In 1976 the official production of the 400 Omega Apollo-Soyuz began.

Using some Omega spare parts, left in the workshops of the Maison DeMarchi, it is very likely that between 1980 and 1981 the Maison DeMarchi was able to make some watches (2 or 3 pcs) Apollo-Soyuz-Demarchi."

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

Faz

Welcome and congrats on a very interesting post!

thank you so much

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

lwong

Some quality and entertaining discussion going on in this thread. But alas, a bit too much saltiness. These were my takeaways:

- MWO authors' account of the "official" or "recognised" 400 Apollo Soyuz models, within a specific serial range, rings true to me. I don't think we can discount the extensive efforts made by them to pour through and corroborate using actual historical Omega documents. And the snapshot of the extract for one of these 400, also supports the view.
- For the remaining pieces, I think we've moved beyond doubt that DeMarchi in Italy assembled an additional number of watches using parts exclusively given to them.
- As to how many watches were assembled by DeMarchi, maybe its 2-3, maybe its 10, maybe its 100, I don't think anyone has a document that establishes the figure beyond a reasonable doubt...
- People have differing views whether these DeMarchi pieces ought to be considered legit Omega watches, since there was apparently some sort of written agreement between Omega and DeMarchi concerning these. And even what this agreement between Omega and DeMarchi covers, is unlikely to be universally agreed upon by all participants in this thread - since folks are throwing around words like "assemble" and "modify", which are all open to interpretation.
- Bienne's archival system will not be able to identify the DeMarchi-assembled watches, since these were put together in Switzerland and apparently neither the DeMarchis nor their staff thought to inform HQ of the serials they were putting together. Personally I find this strange and it smells a bit dishonest to me - when considering that even if the DeMarchis were assembling fresh watches via a "liberal" interpretation of their agreement with Omega, they had to have known that the "original" 400 exhibited a specific configuration rendering them unique (presentation box, serial, caseback numbering, etc.) as opposed to these fresh and unmarked watches they were selling to unknowing customers.

At the end of the day, if you're buying an Apollo Soyuz piece and it exists sans stamped caseback, or is outside the "recognised"/"official" serial range - chances are these were not "factory products" from Omega HQ, but were assembled either by DeMarchi, or else by someone looking to make a quick buck off a franken. Whether that makes it more or less desirable, cheaper vs more expensive - entirely up to that person's narrative based on his/her piecing together these events, facts, views, speculations.

My personal view - I don't see the DeMarchi pieces as originals and like spacefruit, would rather save my scratch for something with all the "official" hallmarks.

Dear @Iwong
you are free to think as you want, after all the same Omega CH has always maintained that:

- The marketing of the Apollo-Soyuz began in April 1976 but then the Italian Omega dealers remember that, during the eponymous space mission, the A-S were already present in the Omega stores.

-While the Apollo-Soyuz range is between 39.180.000 and 39.181.000 but then on 14 and 15 April 2007 OMEGAMANIA, managed by Antiquorum, sold at auction No.2 Apollo-Soyuz considered "original" by the same OMEGA mother house but with serial numbers far removed from the official website (numbers 39.927.934 and 45.585.460)

That said, I also confirm that if I could have chosen between buying an official Omega Apollo-Soyuz or an "A-S out of range", I would have chosen the official one but it is also true that I am happy and proud to have a Pre-Apollo-Soyuz !

If I had a official Omega Apollo-Soyuz, probably today I would not find myself writing on this Forum and some of the details / information I found in these years and shared with you might still have some question marks ...
But I do not understand how one might think that the Maison Demarchi had available:

100 A-S caseback
100 boxes
200 buttons 5.5
100 A-S dials
100 bracelets ref 1168

All this effort to create a line of Apollo-Soyuz-DeMarchi watches?

Let's not forget that the A-S watches did not like customers and that Omega CH itself and to contain costs stopped the production of these watches A-S.

Why assemble a watch that is difficult to sell.
All this would not make sense!

Thank you

 

[Foo2rama]

The question is prove it’s one of the 100 and not pieced together later. Something you have refused to address.

 

[Davidt]

Fuerthermore, is there any evidence that DM had 100 case backs, boxes, dials etc? Perhaps they had 46 case backs, 34 dials, 14 boxes and 178 bracelets? No one has confirmed 100 DM(?) examples.

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

Davidt

Fuerthermore, is there any evidence that DM had 100 case backs, boxes, dials etc? Perhaps they had 46 case backs, 34 dials, 14 boxes and 178 bracelets? No one has confirmed 100 DM(?) examples.

no, no proof in any way I think it was possible that the Maison Demarchi has had some spare parts .... maybe needed to assemble some watches AS ... 100 watches all the same and assembled as the official ones do not believe even if I see

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

Foo2rama

The question is prove it’s one of the 100 and not pieced together later. Something you have refused to address.

forgive me but I didn't understand the question

 

[Foo2rama]

Apollo-Soyuz

forgive me but I didn't understand the question

Let’s assume there are 100 watches made by Demarchi. How can you prove it’s real and not made by someone else from parts?

This is basically the whole problem, which people keep pointing out and you have not addressed

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

Foo2rama

Let’s assume there are 100 watches made by Demarchi. How can you prove it’s real and not made by someone else from parts?

This is basically the whole problem, which people keep pointing out and you have not addressed

I was sure that my version of the facts was clear but at this point I think it's important to reiterate it again:

Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were made and marketed during the eponymous space mission.

30/40 Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were presented to the Italian market in 1975.

Here are some movements belonging to the Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz cataloged by me:

31.316.xxx (mine!)
32.208.1xx
32.208.2xx
32.856.XXX
32.857.XXX
32.859.4XX
32.859.6xx

Among other things, the movements of these Apollo-Soyuz are very close to each other.

In 1976 the official production of the 400 Omega Apollo-Soyuz began.

Using some Omega spare parts, left in the workshops of the Maison DeMarchi, it is very likely that between 1980 and 1981 the Maison DeMarchi was able to make some watches (2 or 3 pcs) Apollo-Soyuz-Demarchi.

I have never talked about a production or a batch of 100 Apollo-Soyuz because there is no proof in fact ... I do not have proof.
For me it is the only one and the only unresolved issue concerns casebacks; if one day we could understand how the
Maison Demarchi associated the casebacks to the A-S watches we would have probably completed the rebus ...

 

[Foo2rama]

Apollo-Soyuz

I was sure that my version of the facts was clear but at this point I think it's important to reiterate it again:

Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were made and marketed during the eponymous space mission.

30/40 Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were presented to the Italian market in 1975.

Here are some movements belonging to the Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz cataloged by me:

31.316.xxx (mine!)
32.208.1xx
32.208.2xx
32.856.XXX
32.857.XXX
32.859.4XX
32.859.6xx

Among other things, the movements of these Apollo-Soyuz are very close to each other.

In 1976 the official production of the 400 Omega Apollo-Soyuz began.

Using some Omega spare parts, left in the workshops of the Maison DeMarchi, it is very likely that between 1980 and 1981 the Maison DeMarchi was able to make some watches (2 or 3 pcs) Apollo-Soyuz-Demarchi.

I have never talked about a production or a batch of 100 Apollo-Soyuz because there is no proof in fact ... I do not have proof.
For me it is the only one and the only unresolved issue concerns casebacks; if one day we could understand how the
Maison Demarchi associated the casebacks to the A-S watches we would have probably completed the rebus ...

So either you did not understand what I said or are ignoring the question again.

 

[Davidt]

So how do you know your watch is a "pre apollo Soyuz" and not just a standard '71 Speedmaster that some one modded?

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

Foo2rama

So either you did not understand what I said or are ignoring the question again.

Dear sirs, we can assume what we want but I do not have the crystal ball and with you I have shared e-mails, statements, details and testimonies about Omega Apollo-Soyuz watches.
You ask me "how can I prove that the Apollo-Soyuz watches were made by the Maison Demarchi rather than by MISTER X WATCH"?
I answer your question as follows: which professional would have ever built a watch that did not like the market in the 1970s?
Replicas and counterfeits have always existed but in 1975 the Maison Demarchi, in agreement with OMEGA CH, assembled and marketed the OMEGA APOLLO-SOYUZ watches and without the help of OMEGA CH would never have been able to do so; for the simple reason that the A-S have too many aesthetic differences compared to a normal Moonwatch watch.
If anyone has the presentiment that there are Apollo-Soyuz watches produced by someone else, I would be very curious to see them. All the A-S I've seen until today were all the same; from the caseback to the dial, the buttons (not all!) and bracelets, it is clear that all the parts were produced by the same hand and for this reason that I exclude that there is someone else who has produced other AS because the three families from find me:
-Pre-Apollo-Soyuz
- OFFICIALS A-S
-Apollo-Soyuz-DeMarchi
they are all the same except ... internal movements that do not always coincide with what OMEGA has declared.
I hope I have answered you thoroughly.

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

Davidt

So how do you know your watch is a "pre apollo Soyuz" and not just a standard '71 Speedmaster that some one modded?

who changed what?
here we do not talk about one particular or another. The AS are completely different from the Speedmasters, the case is different, so as to accommodate the larger buttons, then on the dial there is only the red and blue circular symbol at 12 o'clock (and replace the usual writings that are seen on the other models), bracelet and caseback are unique.
Who could have had so many accessories available to turn Speedmaster into A-S?
for what???
it is very important not to forget that at that time Italian customers preferred to buy a traditional Moonwatch instead of an Apollo-Soyuz. In my humble opinion, if anybody wanted to modify the watches, he would have had to choose a model of watch that was in great demand by the market, and not this one that did not interest anyone until the 1990s.

 

[MaiLollo]

Apollo-Soyuz

who changed what?
here we do not talk about one particular or another. The AS are completely different from the Speedmasters, the case is different, so as to accommodate the larger buttons, then on the dial there is only the red and blue circular symbol at 12 o'clock (and replace the usual writings that are seen on the other models), bracelet and caseback are unique.
Who could have had so many accessories available to turn Speedmaster into A-S?
for what???
it is very important not to forget that at that time Italian customers preferred to buy a traditional Moonwatch instead of an Apollo-Soyuz. In my humble opinion, if anybody wanted to modify the watches, he would have had to choose a model of watch that was in great demand by the market, and not this one that did not interest anyone until the 1990s.

It is a '71 that was changed with A/S parts. The question is who did so. If you bought the watch as is in the seventies it was probably done by De Marchi. For the other watches out of the 39m serial, it's hard to know...

 

[dennisthemenace]

Can anyone here confirm that the Omega assembled AS's had larger pushers and a modified case to accommodate them?

 

[BenBagbag]

dennisthemenace

Can anyone here confirm that the Omega assembled AS's had larger pushers and a modified case to accommodate them?

Golden question. Sounds like that would be helpful in determining the veracity of OP's claims. Regardless, OP has stated his findings and if the community is not ready to accept the watches as original given his new evidence then it is a bit of a moot point.

Many times watches come down to perception. Is an FAP still an FAP if the hands, bezel and crown were never worn by the soldier? People put their money where their mouths are and if people aren't willing to pay more for a Demarchi assembled watch without a numbered caseback and/or an extract then that's just how it will be until you bring new evidence.

 

[Apollo-Soyuz]

MaiLollo

It is a '71 that was changed with A/S parts. The question is who did so. If you bought the watch as is in the seventies it was probably done by De Marchi. For the other watches out of the 39m serial, it's hard to know...

all the Apollo-Soyuz watches of 1975 have in common the fact of having a movement that belonged (according to OMEGA CH) to a production dedicated to Speedmasters.
It is plausible that in 1975 the MAISON Demarchi inserted into the Apollo-Soyuz movements of previous Speedmaster watch production but I categorically rule out that the Maison Demarchi has independently produced the bracelets, dials, buttons, boxes and casebacks.
were these the very secret agreements between OMEGA CH and Demarchi?

however, all the parts making up the Apollo-Soyuz watches have been designed and manufactured by OMEGA CH or its suppliers.

For the other A-S watches out of the 39m serial I believe they were made using spare parts left in the Demarchi laboratories

 

[BenBagbag]

Apollo-Soyuz

all the Apollo-Soyuz watches of 1975 have in common the fact of having a movement that belonged (according to OMEGA CH) to a production dedicated to Speedmasters.

Yeah, but 80% of all 861's of those years were probably dedicated to speedmasters. How does that bolster your claim?

Also please address your claim that Apollo-Suyoz have different pushers and cases to begin with.

 

[dennisthemenace]

BenBagbag

Also please address your claim that Apollo-Suyoz have different pushers and cases to begin with

I think that William's statement that he would not buy an Apollo- Suyoz without 5.5 mm pushers, and the fact that Speedy4Ever has said that in his opinion some of the missing 100 A/S's were assembled by Demarchi using regular 145.0022 cases would be enough to suggest that they did have different cases and pushers. Yet the only extract we have seen so far in this thread, supplied by Lowen, clearly states a case number 145.0022.

 

[Foo2rama]

So no there is no way to tell.