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Of A 386 Casebacks And Forgeries
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Quentin348
·I guy’s,
I have recently contact louS but I see he didn’t reply to my mail where I exply that :
I have bought the a386 of eBay, I really love this watch and I don’t understand why a particular people take time and use a lot of brand parts 20years ago to make forgeries for a watch which have a real value since 3 years.. I agree with forgeries if this possibility is probably real and forgeries is for money..
I know some people who work with zénith, and for them this watch was watch restore by zenith in the 90´s. With my research and knowing I recently contact Zenith factory, they tell me the watch is original with some service parts, since that I have the register extract of the watch which was built between years 71/72.
I’m not novice in vintage watch, I have other el primero vintage and this one is restored but not fake..
sorry for my English
I have recently contact louS but I see he didn’t reply to my mail where I exply that :
I have bought the a386 of eBay, I really love this watch and I don’t understand why a particular people take time and use a lot of brand parts 20years ago to make forgeries for a watch which have a real value since 3 years.. I agree with forgeries if this possibility is probably real and forgeries is for money..
I know some people who work with zénith, and for them this watch was watch restore by zenith in the 90´s. With my research and knowing I recently contact Zenith factory, they tell me the watch is original with some service parts, since that I have the register extract of the watch which was built between years 71/72.
I’m not novice in vintage watch, I have other el primero vintage and this one is restored but not fake..
sorry for my English
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MaiLollo
·I guy’s,
I have recently contact louS but I see he didn’t reply to my mail where I exply that :
I have bought the a386 of eBay, I really love this watch and I don’t understand why a particular people take time and use a lot of brand parts 20years ago to make forgeries for a watch which have a real value since 3 years.. I agree with forgeries if this possibility is probably real and forgeries is for money..
I know some people who work with zénith, and for them this watch was watch restore by zenith in the 90´s. With my research and knowing I recently contact Zenith factory, they tell me the watch is original with some service parts, since that I have the register extract of the watch which was built between years 71/72.
I’m not novice in vintage watch, I have other el primero vintage and this one is restored but not fake..
sorry for my English
Could you please post a picture of your archives' extract ? It would be very interesting to see.
Merci!
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ELV web
·Hi !
Off course I will try.
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Quentin348
·I think that if you want to see forgeries is still possible but I watch these watches long time ago to never have seen a duplicate on xxxD460 or in other number on this caliber.
it is necessary to imagine that the material and temporal means of the production of such a series of shows by an amateur or a forger would have had no interest. the financial aspect being the first aspect and it is almost impossible to find it here, between the price of a box, or a movement. Do not forget that it's shows have been there for a long time and long time before the A386 has any real value.
I am an expert in art where fake are legion and very hard to detect, cost to make a false painting compared to an original suggests the reasons for its manufacture but this is not the case of this watch.
now everyone is free to think as he wishes. The facts are simple, a watch equipped with original service parts, with original serial numbers and case / movement. For me these are restorations rather destined for the American market fond of old watch in new condition and made at a time when the used dials was worth nothing at all, we must remember but the used vintage did not always have the coast.
it is necessary to imagine that the material and temporal means of the production of such a series of shows by an amateur or a forger would have had no interest. the financial aspect being the first aspect and it is almost impossible to find it here, between the price of a box, or a movement. Do not forget that it's shows have been there for a long time and long time before the A386 has any real value.
I am an expert in art where fake are legion and very hard to detect, cost to make a false painting compared to an original suggests the reasons for its manufacture but this is not the case of this watch.
now everyone is free to think as he wishes. The facts are simple, a watch equipped with original service parts, with original serial numbers and case / movement. For me these are restorations rather destined for the American market fond of old watch in new condition and made at a time when the used dials was worth nothing at all, we must remember but the used vintage did not always have the coast.
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LouS
··Mrs Nataf's Other SonBut can there be like dozen of watch with 986d460? My point is, maybe there is one original watch with such serial number and dozens of copies using the same serial number.
They are not all 986D460. But they are all xxxD460, which cannot be an original serial number, as the originals were sequential (xxxD460, xxxD461, xxxD462, etc) What remains constant (or close) in the original serial numbers is the first three digits, as one would expect in sequential numbers. This is true across the entire Zenith catalog for that time period, every model, no exceptions. That is how we are able to determine 5 production sequences for the A386, as follows
538Dxxx - 539Dxxx
707Dxxx - 708Dxxx
861Dxxx - 862Dxxx
922Dxxx - 923Dxxx
231Exxx - 233Exxx
So there's a small series of original A386s with serial numbers that are not only different, but conceived and organized differently from every other case number in their entire production?
I do find it believable that Zenith made these, given the quantity and consistency of the examples. So I read it not as a restoration, but as a modern assembly partly from the parts bin (old movements, old cases), and new production dials and hands. We know we've seen these new dials for sale loose. It would not surprise me to learn that Zenith ran off a bunch of new dials and hands to monetize some leftover movements & cases. The old cases did not have serial numbers as they were never used in production, so Zenith cut new ones (even the technique is different from the original etched ones). There are other examples of such "new-old" factory assemblies among the Swiss manufactures when they want turn legacy parts into cash.
Everyone is of course free to make an individual judgement about authenticity, originality and value.
As for the Zenith extract, I'm interested how they establish a production date for a serial number that could not have existed. Or perhaps they use the same methods as Universal.
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ELV web
·Thanks, stupid me, should have reread this whole thread again (I did it once a couple of years ago when you first started it)
They are not all 986D460. But they are all xxxD460, which cannot be an original serial number, as the originals were sequential (xxxD460, xxxD461, xxxD462, etc) What remains constant (or close) in the original serial numbers is the first three digits, as one would expect in sequential numbers. This is true across the entire Zenith catalog for that time period, every model, no exceptions. That is how we are able to determine 5 production sequences for the A386, as follows
538Dxxx - 539Dxxx
707Dxxx - 708Dxxx
861Dxxx - 862Dxxx
922Dxxx - 923Dxxx
231Exxx - 233Exxx
So there's a small series of original A386s with serial numbers that are not only different, but conceived and organized differently from every other case number in their entire production?
I do find it believable that Zenith made these, given the quantity and consistency of the examples. So I read it not as a restoration, but as a modern assembly partly from the parts bin (old movements, old cases), and new production dials and hands. We know we've seen these new dials for sale loose. The old cases did not have serial numbers as they were never used in production, so Zenith cut new ones (even the technique is different from the original etched ones). There are other examples of such "new-old" factory assemblies among the Swiss manufactures when they want turn legacy parts into cash.
Everyone is of course free to make an individual judgement about authenticity, originality and value.
As for the Zenith extract, I'm interested how they establish a production date for a serial number that could not have existed. Or perhaps they use the same methods as Universal.
Edited:
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chronoboy64
·It also may be, that the "expert" from Zenith based his estimate for the production date / period only on the "986Dxxx" without any additional Investigation. The "986Dxxx" is imo consistent with a production period of 1971/72. The extract also shows, that the originator has no exact information about the single watch, because it only states "1971/72". I call that a "no brainer" 🤨
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MaiLollo
·It also may be, that the "expert" from Zenith based his estimate for the production date / period only on the "986Dxxx" without any additional Investigation. The "986Dxxx" is imo consistent with a production period of 1971/72. The extract also shows, that the originator has no exact information about the single watch, because it only states "1971/72". I call that a "no brainer" 🤨
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Quentin348
·when I contacted zenith about the watch I called them. I talked on the phone with someone who was solely responsible for managing old watches and archives. I still think that the group LVMH is very concerned about the historical image of Zenith, that the archives are digitized for a long time, when one interrogates a search engine with a serial number it can find only one information that exists, it will not sort the numbers to retain only some. It would seem crazy to me that such a group is always with paper archives.
The reason for digitization remains strange, but the story of the brand in the early 70's is not the story of a brand in full commercial development. It was a small factory, the awesome El primero was not stopped for nothing. The limited productions of the first El Primero do not come from the desire to create "collectors" but a cost of production and sales too high, in this kind of context, a small factory does not react as a large group. There can be a multitude of reasons that would explain an error in the numbering of watches, or even a forgotten numbering caught up later, the main thing being the correspondence for them to something. Zenith does not number its watches for its customers but above all to keep track of productions.
If we had remained on certainties with Zenith, the sketches of 3019 would still sleep in the attics of the old workshops.
The fact is that a watch equipped with the right caliber (the same in all respects as my a781), original service parts, an original case is an original restored. If we take the example of a Rolex on valjoux 72 I would be curious to see the number of watches still having a caliber of Rolex, they are for the most part re-dial and I do not speak about the consistency of needles, yet these watches are true restored, their values is less than a NOS. Fashion today wants watches rather worn than restored, ten years ago a restored watch found more easily taker.
A restored A386 is displayed between 6 and 12 from what I saw, an original A386 is rather 14 to 20 is still a nice difference.
To note all the same that during commercial brochure of the vintage 1969 they published a a386 re-dial and with service hands.
The reason for digitization remains strange, but the story of the brand in the early 70's is not the story of a brand in full commercial development. It was a small factory, the awesome El primero was not stopped for nothing. The limited productions of the first El Primero do not come from the desire to create "collectors" but a cost of production and sales too high, in this kind of context, a small factory does not react as a large group. There can be a multitude of reasons that would explain an error in the numbering of watches, or even a forgotten numbering caught up later, the main thing being the correspondence for them to something. Zenith does not number its watches for its customers but above all to keep track of productions.
If we had remained on certainties with Zenith, the sketches of 3019 would still sleep in the attics of the old workshops.
The fact is that a watch equipped with the right caliber (the same in all respects as my a781), original service parts, an original case is an original restored. If we take the example of a Rolex on valjoux 72 I would be curious to see the number of watches still having a caliber of Rolex, they are for the most part re-dial and I do not speak about the consistency of needles, yet these watches are true restored, their values is less than a NOS. Fashion today wants watches rather worn than restored, ten years ago a restored watch found more easily taker.
A restored A386 is displayed between 6 and 12 from what I saw, an original A386 is rather 14 to 20 is still a nice difference.
To note all the same that during commercial brochure of the vintage 1969 they published a a386 re-dial and with service hands.
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subregister
·New post to a very old thread (an excellent one from LouS), but wanted to add a link to the serial number project that includes these forgeries in case of interest:
https://alphahands.com/faq/case-number-serial-number-project/
https://alphahands.com/faq/case-number-serial-number-project/
